Mountains around Beit Shemesh.
B"H
Before anyone starts asking. "No, the Toldot Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe Shmuel Yaakov Kahn was not neither in Jerusalem nor in Beit Shemesh last Shabbat".
The Kahn family is still in deep shock about that one of the daughters lost her husband (Rabbi Aryeh Leibush Teitelbaum) due to the terror attack on the "Chabad House" in Mumbai / India. The Rebbe went to Arad (a small town in the Negev) and the reason may have been to simply get away from all the mourning and see something else for a while.
Bus No. 411 from Tel Aviv to Beit Shemesh takes ages. I was on the bus for more than an hour because the bus went through the whole countryside. The town of Ramle and all the surroundings. Finally we got to Beit Shemesh and after some time even to Ramat Beit Shemesh.
Ramat Beit Shemesh is the haredi part of Beit Shemesh and I was invited there by an Toldot Avraham Yitzchak family. I had their address and as soon as I got off the bus, I wanted to ask my way through which I did. When asking a Breslov woman for the particular street she told me that there are two parts of Ramat Beit Shemesh; Aleph and Beit. A little later it turned out that my friends live in Beit, in the chassidic part.
After asking someone else I quickly found my way and one of my friend's daughters was waiting for me in front of the house. It was almost Shabbat when I finally arrived and the three kids of the family were jumping all over me. All their lives (from 5 - 7) they have been growing up chassidic and I was a total outsider for them. I think the biggest shock was finding out that I don't wear stockings. This was just unbelievable for the kids and totally immodest. In other words, I had a good time with the two daughters and the son. Additionally, the family had another visitor like me. They took care of a one - year - old little boy from friends (Chassidut Bobov) and young Hershi became our Shabbat "star". Everyone was after him and I wouldn't have blamed him for having a nervous breakdown.
The father went to the Synagogue with his son and the mother and I were talking. In the middle, the kids drove us nuts. She told me about how they got adjusted in Beit Shemesh after living in Jerusalem for a couple of years. There was nothing going on in town and from the windows we only saw Chassidim walking up and down and the mountains further away. A great view and fresh air.
Especially Haredim discovered Beit Shemesh long ago, as it is not too far away from Jerusalem and rents are cheaper. After young couples are getting married, they rather move to Beit Shemesh or Beitar instead of staying in expensive Jerusalem. However, even in Beit Shemesh it is hard to find a place to live in the haredi area. The demand is so great that construction workers cannot follow anymore.
The area where I stayed.
What you do on Erev Shabbat ?
You make Kiddush, eat and go to sleep. And this is what we did.
The next morning, my friends husband and the son went to the Synagogue. We, the daughters and Hershi had a tiny breakfast and then decided to go for a walk. The weather was sunny and warm and my friend showed me all the new chassidic neighbourhoods. Chassidut Nadvorna and Dushinksy are building great Synagogues at the moment.
We were in the chassidic part and suddenly heard cars coming. My friend told me that there are some secular inhabitants who especially on Shabbat get the idea of taking their car or motor - bike and driving through the haredi neighbourhood. "They only do this on Shabbat", my friend said when this huge motor - bikes were passing us. "Then people yell at them "Shabbes" and the secular complain. What would they say if we went into their areas and were hanging out there ? Maybe we should do this and see their reaction. But they only do this here to cause trouble".
We got to a playground and the Beit Midrash of Chassidut Gur was right next to us. The kids were jumping on the swings and everything and suddenly a jogger passes by. He wasn't that what Haredim call "modestly dressed". Then my friend had enough and screamed "Shabbes !" The jogger stopped and asked if she has a problem. She just went on "Shabbes, Shabbes", and the jogger lost his temper. "Taliban !" he yelled and disappeared.
I told my friend that she didn't necessarily had to scream at him but, on the other hand, the jogger passed a haredi neighbourhood and he didn't even care that there were religious children on the playground while he wasn't dressed modestly. "We try to raise our kids pure", my friend that. What kind of impression do the kids get from this ? Some joggers even run without wearing a shirt at all".
This incident showed me how many secular just ignore the haredi population. I am not saying that there shouldn't be tolerance on both sides but many times before, I had the experience that especially parts of the secular population are provoking trouble and then complain that the Haredim are so bad, yell and throw stones. I don't get a kick out of running around through Mea Shearim half naked but other people obviously do.
I had a great Shabbat with the family and when I left after Havdalah, the kids were just jumping on me and asked me to come back soon. Even without wearing stockings.
Why don't you write about the lynch that happened to a few dati-leumi kids, about 100 meters from where you stayed?
ReplyDeleteI wonder why osculation points of religious and secular communities always have to develop into such a struggle. I am from a mixed family, some are secular, some are piously observant. We get along fine and never would anyone secular would disturb shabbat and neither would someone observant and who is familiar with halacha and it's deeper meaning reprimand someone else, if it's uncalled for. Of course, we are not Chassidim and probaly not that strict, but shabbes is shabbes. נקודה.
ReplyDeleteIt has a lot do with self-respect. I respect myself and therefore I would never do any work on shabbat. On the other hand I expect some kind of self-respect from others. You're secular? Fine with me, if it's fine with you. I don't lectures about it and how complicated and 'backward' it might seem to non-observant outsiders. It's just not my lifestyle anymore and I don't need mindless provocations or insults. On the other hand, I know what I do is right, and also perfectly acceptable to those who think otherwise. So why shoudln't we get along. We're are all jews, or jewish to some degree, by the way. So the better way to deal with differences would be a healthy discussion and not outrageous provocative behavior or tribalistic withdrawal from the world in general.
Wishful thinking, I know. Just my 2 agurot...
B"H
ReplyDeleteMaybe you can provide me with further information or give a link to the Dati Le'umi Kids, as I don't know about it. My friends wouldn't do either, as they only moved a couple of months ago to Beit Shemesh.
I am not in favour of yelling SHABBES at other Jews on Shabbat.
First of all, you don't turn them into doing Teshuva but only turn them off. They think that you are nuts and fanatic and run further away from religion. Has anyone ever done Teshuva because be was being yelled at ? You just cause the opposite.
I told my friend that I wouldn't yell at a jogger. On the other hand, she saw it as her duty because he was not dressed modestly and there were haredi kids around.
Okay, I am getting her point. But she also yelled at every car passing by. It doesn't really bother me but I simply wouldn't do it, as I am not the type to force other Jews into religion. I have my own faults and try to look at me first before yelling at others. At least I try.:-)
You can call the yelling fanatic but what about the secular doing many things on purpose to drive the Haredim nuts ? It is both sides and I don't see a solution.
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2008/12/violence-in-bet-shemesh-on-upswing.html
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteI wasn't able to read the link you gave, as the site crashed my computer four times. Instead I found a HAARETZ article on the subject.
I know the area the article was talking about. The haredi area already spread over the bridge towards the rich American national religious Sheinfeld neighbourhood.
Right in front of the bridge separating the Haredim in Ramat Beit Shemesh from the rest you can find a ruin. A shopping mall was supposed to be built and was never finished. A mall with a movie theatre inside but as the Haredim spread over the bridge, the mall was out of place. Now the whole area before the bridge is already haredi and this is where my friend and I were walking.
The Haredim consider this as their area and visitors have to behave in a certain way. Gur is there and others. They don't want foreign influences and especially the national religious Americans are regarded as not necessarily that modest. In other words, too open minded.
We could discuss the endless subject but when I know that there is a religious area, I do behave in a certain way.
I don't know on which bus the people were on who got attacked by Haredim. When I went to Jerusalem last Mozzaei Shabbat, I took bus number 417.
I had considered that this would be a religious bus with a Mechitzah and expected the worst. As soon as I got onto the bus, I was very surprised finding men and women not being separated.
Beit Shemesh is a problem because the Haredim are spreading. They, on the other hand, only want to protect their society from visitors not behaving in a certain way. Of course, this doesn't justify attacks but I don't think that just any Haredi is going wild.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteThe only people who have problem with the dati leumiim are the yerushalaymer. The Belzer, litvish, and Gerer that predominate the area coexist with everyone -- except with the Yerushalaymer, like your hosts, who they can't stand. Why? Because the yerushalaymer insist on imposing their lifestyle choices on everyone else.
And by the way, there was never a plan to put a movie theatre in the mall. In fact, most charedim in the area, except for the yerushalaymer and kanoim, want the mall finished.
Go to the lifeinisrael.blogspot.com website for a discussion about the attack that happened this Friday night, meters from where you stayed.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI do admit that the Yerushalmim are something complicated. However, Belz and others definitely don't want a secular mall being build in their neighbourhood. That's just ridiculous.
The blog you mentioned crashed my computer but a friend of mine sent me the article on the subject.
I have to tell you: Whoever calls the Haredim "cancer" is not reliable in my eyes.
I don't want to protect the Haredim but there were incidents in Beit Shemesh where people claimed to have been attacked and later it turned out that there was no real proof whatsoever.
So, I am sceptical.
Dearest Miriam,
ReplyDelete1. A teenage girl was attacked -- pushed to the floor and kicked. That is a fact. You are welcome to call up the Rav of the community, Rav David, to confirm this.
2. Belz and Ger are, in fact, pushing for the mall to be built. You obviously don't understand these communities.
3. The guest post on lifeinisrael didn't say that charedim are a cancer -- it say that violence in the charedi world is a cancer. That is a very big difference.
4. Which incidents in Bet Shemesh are you referring to in that last paragraph? I haven't heard of a single case here in Bet Shemesh where a claim of violence was made up.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI asked my friends in Beit Shemesh and they hadn't heard about anyone being attacked lately. Just the opposite, Haredim usually don't attack women but only men. At least not physically.
I am not saying that the incident you described is not true but I do have my doubts. And those doubts are justified, as approx. half a year ago, a woman made a big fuss claiming she was attacked on a Beit Shemesh bus. She was in the press and claimed that there were witnesses. Then no one had ever heard of those witnesses and the case just seemed to disappear. Nothing was heard about it anymore.
I don't understand why people, like the girl and the boy in the guest post, need to go to Ramat Beit Shemesh or close to it when they don't belong there and are surely aware of trouble. Why do I need to go there ? Do I go to Mea Shearim with a guy ? The truth is no and I try to avoid male company there. I do respect the area and so do most Haredim when they come to secular parts of town. At least in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
Miriam,
ReplyDeleteThe girls were walking WITHOUT BOYS from the Dati Leumi neighborhood of Sheinfeld to friends in Ramat Bet Shemesh A. The only way to go is through Ramat Bet Shemesh B.
These are regular American girls -- not kids off the derech.
Feel free to call in the Sheinfeld neighborhood and they will tell you what happened. The last name of the girl is Singer.
If you want, I will give you her parents' email so you can tell them that their daughter wasn't beat up.
Shame on you.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI don't think that haredi guys would touch strange women and beat them up or vice versa. Maybe yell at them but not beating them.
Secondly, who exactly where those Haredim. I mean to which group did they belong ?
I would rather speak to one of the leading chassidic rabbis in Beit Shemesh and already inquired about the names. The only question is if they are prepared to speak to someone female like me. I may get in touch with nthe sister ofthe Toldot Aharon as well as of the Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe and ask around. Not only about the particular case but about the situation in general.
Some Haredim alrady claimed that there is a politicum going on because the national religious fear to be overrun by Haredim.
Miriam,
ReplyDeleteI see you just don't get it.
I am going to stop commenting, since you are afraid or unwilling to confront the truth. (I see you haven't responded to the fact that ALL charedim except the Yerushalaymer are now in favor of the mall.)
Just for your information:
Mrs. Rottenberg, whom you mentioned, is the wife of Naftoli Hersh Rottenberg. And yes, he is one of those rabbis who support the violence.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI didn't responded because I want to speak to someone from Gur and Belz first. I cannot imagine that especially Gur is in favour of a mall.:-)
It seems to me that you, as well as other comments in certain blog, just like to provoke. We already know that everything is only the fault of the Haredim and everyone else is innocent.