B"H
A few days ago, I went back to Bnei Brak (near Tel Aviv) in order to get the haredi town a little better. In front of the Azrieli Tower in Tel Aviv I took the number 54 bus going to Kiryat Vishnitz. Kiryat Vishnitz is a neighbourhood in Bnei Brak, and, as the name says, a neighbourhood of the Vishnitzer Chassidim. Well, people might think that this really sounds like extreme Orthodoxy where everyone is so modest and women cover themselves just like in Iran.
I decided not to go as far as the Kiryah because it was already late in the afternoon. Instead I wanted to walk through the crowded shopping areas such as Rabbi Akivah Street and Chazon Ish Street. To get to know the people and, by the way, I just enjoy watching people walking up and down. Moreover, I was planning to look for the number 1 bus because I had heard before that this local bus has a real separation between men and women. With "real" I mean a curtain as a Mechitzah in the middle of the bus and not "only" separate seating.
While I was looking for a bus stop in Bnei Brak I started asking myself where I pay the driver when I get on the bus. I am rather practical and this was a practical matter bothering me. If you look at all the other "modest or kosher" buses, men sit in the front and women in the back. However, women get on the bus where the driver sits and pay there. But what about the curtain and everything ? Unfortunately, in the end, I didn't find bus no. 1.
But next time I will.
Outsiders probably think that the Haredim are nuts; separate buses and so …
But reality rather shows that the majority of the Haredim are against such kosher buses. I spoke to many of them and they all opposed such fundamentalist ideas. Only a few extremist would make such a fuzz and demand kosher buses in order to get attention and show their power. And I should just have a look at the existing kosher buses. Many haredi travelers don't even keep the separate seating. Couples sit together somewhere in the middle and young guys can sometimes to be found in the back; right next to teenage girls. I saw this myself many times and no one on the bus complained or said a word.
Bnei Brak wants to be more strict than anyone else and sometimes haredi decrees just seem to be so ridiculous. Nevertheless, if you have a closer look at those issues, then sometimes you will realize that some decrees are not that bad. At least there is something behind. Even for women. And the decrees are anything but new. For a long time already we have been seeing all these modesty signs in the shop windows of Mea Shearim and Bnei Brak. Shop owners only want customers dressed modestly.
Does this sound like Iran or agaist any democracy ?
Maybe, but if I don't agree with those kind of regulations, I am not forced to buy there. I can buy anywhere else and don't need to make a fuzz about shop owners who don't want women in pants. There are plenty of other stores I can go to.
And, as you might know, Bnei Brak is the first city having a department store only for women. Many haredi women enjoy shopping without being watched by men or a pushy husband. The department store is very well accepted.
However, the worst could take place in the future. Unanimous fanatics hung up signs demanding separate sidewalks for men and women. This happened in Bnei Brak as well as in Beit Shemesh. The signs were hung up unofficially and taken down by the police. The Israeli press went completely wild about the issue but the Haredim themselves remained calm. Who cares about a few loonies with some fundamentalist ideas ?
One Chassid claimed that in the near future, most Jerusalem buses will have separate seating. "You will see", he told me.
I am not sure if I should believe him. Well, maybe, as the secular population is leaving the city and more and more Haredim are streaming in. Sometimes it bothers me a lot when I get on a bus passing haredi areas. The bus is full of male Haredim and everyone took his own seat. So, where do I sit ? My favourite behaviour in such a case is to sit down next to a Haredi. He then jumps up, leaves and I have the seat to myself. But I am not necessarily recommending this behaviour to you. It shouldn't be always imitated.
I admit that all this separation sounds like Iran. On the other hand, there are women realizing an advantage. They are not being stared at by perverts. Anyway, I could go on for hours about the subject but, so far, my conclusion is that the moment I get onto such a kosher bus, I have to accept certain rules. And if I don't like them, I am free to take another bus. Kosher Jerusalem buses are the bus no. 402 to Bnei Brak, bus no. 472 to Kiryat Sefer, bus no. 185 to Beitar or bus no. 417 to Ramat Beit Shemesh. And sometimes you will find Haredim not going according to the rules even on those buses. You just have to know when and how …
Friday, July 11, 2008
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I see your point about having choices about the buses. I'm curious though, did the haradim make a fuss when a couple of women were beaten on some of those buses a year or so ago?
ReplyDeleteI must admit that the news media tends to focus on the most outrageous stories. I thank you for giving a different perspective.
B"H
ReplyDeleteIn every society you have extreme nutty fundamentalist people. And haredi society is no exception. Also there, you have some people who always want to show that they are so "righteous" and therefore make a big fuzz about anything.
It depends on the situation and the people. You can be lucky or you get someone really crazy who would even beat a woman into her "modesty seat".
The media always reports when there is an extreme incident but they don't report about the daily life where the separation is not always kept.
The last incident where in woman got attacked in Beit Shemesh is doubtful for many people. There was no real proof or whatever. I heard from different sources that the press only made it into something.
The problem is that the writer Naomi Ragen likes to jump on such things. Her first book "The Sotah" was okay but then, due to the lack of haredi sources, she only produced one failure after the other. Except for her theatre play.
N. Ragen has no connections to Mea Shearim and seems to look for new sources for her future books.
However, I will go on such buses and tell about my experiences. Good or bad, I am against such separations, but it is not me decideing.:-)))))
i have this question Miriam, what the Halacha say about it?
ReplyDeleteCarlos Bnei Noach - Honduras
B"H
ReplyDeleteGood question.:-))))
A certain kind of modesty should be kept according to Halacha but buses or separate sidewalks are far too much. No one ever requested this and I just had a discussion about this matter with a friend of mine this Shabbat.
I don't think that our foremothers Sarah, Rachel, etc. were facing such difficulties. Think about Yael or Deborah in the Book of Prophets. Or think about the wife of the talmudic Rabbi Me'ir, Beruriah.
A long time ago, women were not seen as something like the Yetzer or the plague.
By the way, there are rumours that Rashis daughters wrote the Rashi commentary on the Talmud Tractate Nedarim.
Once upon a time, women were treated differently in Judaism. But in the last years of the late Middle Ages something must have happened. Unfortunately.
It is good to hear your point of view. The media does seem to take the most extreme cases and one can get the impression that all haradim are the same.
ReplyDeleteIn studying, I too have found that something happened during the late Middle Ages and Jewish women began being treated as if they have cooties.
I wonder if the Shulcan Arech had anything to do with it. The separation curtain began appearing in shuls at this time. Their have been many women Talmud scholars and their kol ishas need to be heard.
It is sad that all are to pray like Hannah, men and women both, but some say a woman's voice shouldn't be heard in a shul during prayers.
B"H
ReplyDeleteHi Shira,
Many many times I had the experience that more educated Haredim treat women in a very different way. I see this myself because when I speak to Haredim who are writing books and I ask different questions, they are very open to answer. Maybe not Gur or Satmar but enough others.
Others, on the other hand, feel threatened by a woman studying Talmud or further higher Jewish studies.
Maybe it was the SHULCHAN ARUCH but during the Middle Ages, there was a Jewish woman, Gracia Mendes, who made it possible for Jews fleeing the Inquisition and settling in Israel.
I don't know what happened later but already in chassidic times, women played a minor role. Except for Adel, the daughter of the Baal Shem Tov.
Today it is more a sign of power than Halacha. Men don't want to loose their power and like to keep their wives at home taking care of the kids.
http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm
Well, you can pray louder but most men wouldn't hear you anyway through the Mechitzah.:-)))))