B"H
Just recently, I wrote about the "Baal Teshuva Movement" and the reality of not finding too much acceptance among born Haredim.
One of my readers wrote two very interesting comments by mentioning a very important point why religious society is very careful with Baalei Teshuva. Especially in the Shidduch business.
The context of the comments (which you can be found almost on the bottom) might be shocking. However, there are Halachot and even the Talmud speaks about it.
Please find the article here:
http://shearim.blogspot.com/2008/08/not-welcomed.html
Furthermore, the reader gave an interesting link everyone should read carefully:
http://www.aishkodesh.org/articles/library_ArticleDetail.asp?ArticleID=99&ArtType=R&left=1&pgno=1
Regarding myself, I can only repeat what I wrote in my last comment:
As I am a Baalat Teshuva myself, what shall I say ?
Honestly, I don't consider myself as someone worth less. In my opinion, eventually only G - d Himself makes decisions about who is honest and who is not. Despite the Niddah trouble of ones parents.
By the way, in Kabbalah it says that Avraham's parents, Terach and Amtelai, didn't keep Niddah and this is why their souls were reincarnated and had to be rectified.
Thursday, September 4, 2008
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A question that I have is what is this drive for Baal Teshuvim to marry Haredi Jews? Is it to "feel" more religious having a FFB wife and inlaws?
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is based on my experience and should be taken as a grain of salt. Haredi Jews have no problem accepting B.T.'s into their midst. BUT and this is a big BUT that B.T.'s just dont seem to get and I will be writing about this soon enough. If you want to be accepted by Haredi Jews then you have to BE HAREDI. Its a hard idea to swallow. You need to learn the language because English wont cut it. You need to do more than just dress Haredi, you need to speak, walk, talk, and learn Haredi. You need to be learned and you need to follow the minhagim of that community. I dont think that Chasidim have minhag watch a movie and own a TV. You have to live the lifestyle fully like they do.
I know many people that are B.T. with non frum parents who live in very frum communities and have no problem.
Lets not fool ourselves. There are plenty of B.T.'s who are at the level of the Haredi Jews who can marry eachother.
Thats what I did. When I was looking to get married there were FFB shidduch offers and I passed on it. I married a B.T. who was just as frum as I and it has worked out perfect. B"H.
FFB's dont get B.T. jokes and vice versa.
Once you are married you can integrate into Haredi lifestyle as I know B.T.'s who are Satmar, Aleksander, Ger, and Belz, and these are some of the groups who people claim "dont accept" outsiders.
They accept outsiders that are the real deal, not people that just want to say oh look Im a so and so chasid and then home and turn on their T.V.
If not for the language barrier that I am in the process of overcoming I was very much accepted by the haredim in Bnei Brak.
B"H
ReplyDeleteHello Long Beach Chassid. :-)
By the way, where is "Long Beach" geographically ? In New York or Miami ?
I think that you have to make a difference between The US and Israel. Especially Bnei Brak, Mea Shearim, Sanhedria, whatever you call it.
It is said that American Chassidim are much more open than a Chassid in the Batei Ungarin backyard.
Leaving out here maybe Satmar or the Neturei Karta. With them, I am not too sure.
However, let's be honest: Born Chassidim do always consider you as a Ger or Baal Teshuva. They don't forget where you come from and even if they don't tell you, they might talk behind your back.
I am mentioning this regarding Israel. In the States, I don't know.
Of course, after a while and lots of efforts, you might get accepted. But many haredi Baalei Teshuva I spoke to (mostly litvish) didn't feel any desire forcing themselves into a society where they are constantly viewed as "someone not born this way". Many Baalei Teshuva I spoke to would prefer a Baal Teshuva Shidduch. It makes it easier for them and the other side can understand them much better instead of a born Satmar etc.
I think that especially Baalei Teshuva and Gerim feel a special desire for perfecting oneself. After they became frum, they want to be seen as perfect. From society and in their own eyes. And where does it work better than in the haredi society ?
Call it "fascination", "attraction", whatever.
But, as I said in my German blog, those newscomers who cannot deal with the daily chassidic life and even some rudeness from the born Haredim, should stay away.
Getting accepted is a long, sometimes painful, process, and one needs strong nerves, lots of self - confidence and an even stronger trust in G - d.
Ive heard and felt the opposite. Israel heradim being more accepting than the ones in the States.
ReplyDeleteFor me personally I dont think this is such an issue and like myself if you chose to live such a life you have to live it. It doesnt come over night and if becoming a true chasid only took a week, then how righteous could a person really be?
Let them talk behind back for when they are judged they will realize their error and have to come down here and do this thing called Earth all over again.
Im not worried, I know that Hashem has a place where I will be the closest to him and he will show me that place when he deems me worthy.
shkoiach.
B"H
ReplyDeleteYou can be lucky or you cannot. It always depends.
In Mea Shearim, however, I had the opposite experiences. Especially when you look into such an extreme groups like the "Toldot Aharon". They have special Takanot and newcomers are accepted but, only up to a certain point.
You might have the feeling that you are accepted anywhere. But, when it comes to certain issues like Shidduchim or being accepted as a rabbi for a higher position within the group, you might realize that there is a barrier between you and the others.
When I ask Israeli Haredim about other Haredim, they sometimes start whispering: "Well, he or she is a convert or a Baal Teshuva".
If you have enough self - confidence and trust in HaShem, you probably let the Haredim know through your behaviour, that you are honest. And your charisma can make a difference.
Nevertheless, I am not the type of running after acceptance and just be as I am. Let them accept me or not.
It sounds strange but when I speak with chassidic women, they davka like talking to me, as I represent the more open type but I am not hiding my opinions and try to cheat around. And this openess is what Chassidim do appreaciate and not an artificial "effort making".
LBC - did you read the article?
ReplyDeleteWhat you say is true. Yet it would beyond my understanding why a B.T. would attempt to join Toldos Aharon or Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok. They consider almost all haredi chasidim to not be machmar enough.
ReplyDeleteIt also seems silly to want be apart of a haredi community and not take on their Takanot. Its part of the package. If you cant handle it then live in their community. Their Rebbe can still be your Rebbe. You can travel to him for chagim or shabbos etc.
To go from non religious to B.T. to Haredi is a transformation process that should take years and i dont mean two. You need to grow a lot and you shouldnt just jump in.
It takes a lot of training and crying out to Hashem to rectify your soul to a level that you can live a pious pure life like the Ger Chasidim and Satmar (insert any other chasidic group here).
Im will have to see the promotion of rank if you will for myself. I know my Rav is a B.T. and has smicha from a very big Rav. He is able to mingle with the most chassidish of them. Hes a Talmud Chacham who is fluent in Polish, Yiddish, and Hebrew and has spent over 15 years growing not to mention having smicha.
This is how you get accepted. Not putting on a bekesha and an up hat and learning Torah here in there.
In the end though the goal should be to be accepted by man for in the world to come only the acceptance of Hashem will matter.
B"H
ReplyDeleteThere are quite a few Baalei Teshuva or Gerim who do get attracted by extreme chassidic groups.
If you go to the Toldot Aharon for the Tish, the group members are nice and somehow this very closed society attracts you. I cannot explain it but someone maybe should write a psycholoy PhD. on it.:-)
Many BTs run to Satmar, Belz or Gur. A Boyaner Chassid told me that they are not too anxious by taking newcomers in, as they had problems with them in the past. The reasons were that the BTs had no clue about the daily life in a chassidic society and couldn't make it.
If you join such a group it also means giving up many many things from your former life. First you think that this shouldn't be a problem but then you get a crisis.
Someone from from Dushinsky also told me that their Rebbe doesn't encourage people to join. It looks like many groups fear that in the end, the BTs or Gerim aren't able to function.
Not in full. Does that matter in regards to anything I said?
ReplyDeleteOf course.
ReplyDeleteI agree and thats why people need to be strong in their Torah before the attempt the many stringent views of Chassidim. Its appealing because they dress in an interesting way and like to sing and be happy. That not Chassidus.
You have more interaction with the Chasidim than I do but I see B.T's who run before then can walk. You get a little way and then BAM fall on your face. The worse is to see a B.T. burn out because life became "difficult". Thats when you should turn to Hashem to most.
There is a yeshiva called Derech HaMelech. Its a B.T. Chasidic yeshiva that has Breslov, Klausenberger, Ger, Stolin Karlin, Boyan and many other groups. They teach you not only the halacha, and haskfaka but how to function in their society.
Its not for everyone so you have to find your limit and there are steps to find that out before you move to Mea Sharim and realize you made a huge mistake when you cant handle eating every meal in the other room while your wife eats in another etc.
B"H
ReplyDeleteBTs seem to have this endless urge showing everyone how much they changed and how "holy" they are now. But not only BTs, as I have seen this with converts to Judaism as well.
It is a whole phsychological issue why people get attracted by Chassidim. When I had my first thoughts about "maybe joining", it was because of a "perfect" religious world I had experienced. Okay, everyone will laugh now, that's fine with me.:-))))
However, when you are new and you are invited to Mea Shearim, visit Chassidim, speak to them and go to their shuls, you do get the impression that this is just perfect. This is the way, Judaism should be lived and everyone else around you, national religious or litvish, are "stupid" or "worth less".
One day you realize that this is not true at all. Also Chassidim are humans and have their negative points. And it is mostly this reality bringing you back to the ground and then you can decide how are you going to continue. Continue or just leave ?
Many Chassidim don't recognize somewhen when he or she hasn't studied in a firm program. Let's say AISH or Ohr Sameach. MIR, whatever there is for guys.
Women should have also been in a program such as Neve Yerushalaim, Nishmat, Midreshet Rachel, etc.
Most of those Yeshivot or seminaries are litvish; however, it is very much appreaciated when someone has such a foundation of two or three years.
Making Teshuva or being a freshling from the conversion Beit Din, doesn't impress Chassidim. They look at your character traits and especially converts are lacking those Jewish traits.
I don't know if I am more in touch with Chassidim but it is definitely them telling the BTs or converts not to hasten and first get to know society and learn somewhere else.
My friends and I call it Baal Sheevy syndrome. It happens because you are excited when you realized you are now living your life on a quest of Emes and not of Gashmius garbage.
ReplyDeleteIf you learn the correct seforim you are able to humble yourself back into reality.
It also helps to go learn in Israel where you realize that you actually dont know a whole lot.
It is a horrible injustice to yourself, your soulmate, and your future offspring as a B.T. to not put at least 2 years into yeshiva/seminary.
Your kids are going to know more Torah iy"H than you anyway but it isnt a good feeling when you cant help your 5 year old with his/her homework.
May we all continue to learn and strive for the acceptance of Hashem and through his acceptance, will the acceptance of man soon follow.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI agree with you a hundred per cent.
And it is much better studying in Israel, as you face all kinds of realities.:-)