B"H
Haredi forums react within seconds and someone already reported minutes after the Holocaust Day siren about the secular press running to Ge'ulah (ultra orthodox neighbourhood in Jerusalem) and taking pictures of Haredim not standing.
The same discussion every years: Why do some Haredim not stand attention to the two - minute - siren sound on Israel's Yom HaShoah ? Everyone else (except Arabs) stand but many Haredim just continue with their business as usual. Because we all live in the State of Israel does it automatically mean that I have to obey any rules connected to it ?
Years ago I was mad when I read in the paper that certain Haredim seem to ignore the sirens but later on I learned to understand why. I just wish that the wider public would learn more about the subject as well instead of getting satisfaction by reading the secular press.
Not everyone is necessarily anti - Zionist or Neturei Karta but in some circles, the date for the Holocaust Day stipulated by the Israeli government is non - acceptable for Haredim. They rather remember the victims of the Holocaust on 10 Tevet or on Tisha Be'Av.
Actually there was a discussion in Israel not too long ago if 9 Av wouldn't be more proper anyway, as especially this day, stands for Jewish suffering.
It may sound naive but my compromise concerning Israel's present Holocaust Day would be that Haredim walking outside their particular neighbourhoods should stand when the sirens go off. It shouldn't be that someone walking around downtown Jerusalem ignores the siren and others stand.
Whereas in Bnei Brak, Beitar or Mea Shearim people can do whatever they like.
Once a haredi woman from the Chatam Sofer group told me that if she hears the sirens, she doesn't stand but sits down and reads Tehillim (Psalms).
"And what do all those people do while standing ?" she asked.
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
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Standing n Sience for the memory of those who died is a "goyish" thing. it has no sources in any jewish litrituare, so whats the point of standing.
ReplyDeletethose that are decendnts of holcoust survivors rember those perished more then 2 minutes a year, and do constrctive things for thier souls,
B"H
ReplyDeleteI completely agree.
Nevertheless, it is a nice gesture when everyone is standing during the sirens.
Call it naive but I see it this way.
In his book EYES TO SEE
ReplyDeletehttp://www.urimpublications.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=UP&Product_Code=Eyes
Rabbi Yom Tov Schwarz talked about that:
"Schwarz faults the haredi world for never having instituted a day of mourning in honor of the Holocaust. He reminds the reader of a time, following the pogroms in Poland and the Ukraine, when rabbinic leaders declared the 20th of Sivan ( Kaf B'Sivan) as a day of fasting and special prayers. According to the author, this day was observed for many years after the 17th century, at least among Polish Jews. Certainly the Holocaust should merit similar remembrance.".
I remember, I have the book at home though, he dedicated a chapter to discuss that argument.
bs"D
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Miriam - Ok it's a goyish thing, but if everyone is stood still for 2 mins to remember the death of our people - what's the big deal? stand still! Sometimes we think so much, we lose sight of the point.
B"H
ReplyDeleteFor many years, haredi society hasn't dealt with the Holocaust. Maybe because they simply didn't have an answer why this had happened to the Jewish people. Although some anti - Zionists as the Satmarer Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum as well as the founder of Chassidut Toldot Aharon, Rebbe Aharon Roth, claimed that Zionism played a role in why G - d let the Holocaust happen.
Haredim were devastated after the war, lost hundreds of thousands of members and reacted in the way, as if they now have to catch up for the lost generations by having more children.
A few months ago, I wrote an article on the subject quoting from the book: "Hasidic Responses to the Holocaust" by Pesach Schindler.
http://shearim.blogspot.com/2008/01/chassidim-and-holocaust.htmlSome Haredim told me that they remember the victims on Tisha Be'Av, others on 10 Tevet. But you are right, there should be a firm date for them as well.
B"H
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli goverment should have chosen Tisha Be'Av to begin with. Choosing a heroic event such as the uprise in the Warsaw Ghetto was a nice symbol but something Jewish is missing.
I do understand the Haredim, however, while walking in secular areas, one should stand.
By the way, we will have the same discussion again next week when it comes to "Yom HaZikaron" for the fallen Israeli soldiers.
ther are kinos on Tisha Baav for the hocoust as well asfor the exrdiction of our brothers from gush katif
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteThere are all kinds of Kinot for pogroms throughout the centuries but I didn't know that there is something on Gush Katif ...
look here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.google.co.il/search?hl=iw&q=%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA+%D7%A2%D7%9C+%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%9F+%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A9+%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%99%D7%A3&meta=&aq=f&oq=
I have been surprised and outraged beyond all belief when I replied to a facebook comment yesterday about yom hashoah. The Rabbi, who's name will remain anonymous stated, "it is time that we stop "remembering" the holocaust." When I responded, and asked about the 6,000,000 who died al kidush Hashem, I received tens of personal messages attacking me, and tens of responses on the thread on facebook. Many of these unfortunate souls were outrightly saying that there is no real benefit in remembering, in recalling the dead, in telling their stories, etc. Not standing for the siren is one thing, but to have all of these people saying that Holocaust education is a waste of time really left me feeling in grief. I didn't know that this sentiment was so widespread in the chareidi community.
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the Dati'im Leumim are more into those kind of Kinot than the Haredim.
B"H
ReplyDeleteConderning the Facebook attack comment:
Honestly, I have never heard such an opinion before. Not remembering the victims anymore.
I don't know who this rabbis is but it sounds rather off to me.
It is true that Haredim have a different way of remembering the dead and a different way of mourning as a whole. They don't feel like showing their pain in public nor do they have the desire of making a statement. What they rather do is sitting at home or in the synagogue and saying prayers or Tehillim (Psalms).
In July 2000, the former Sephardi Chief Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef claimed that all Holocaust victims were destined to die because their souls were from the Erev Rav. Not, that they were bad people with evil souls; just the opposite: the souls were holy and needed a Tikun (retification).
After he made this speech, people were outraged and especially Israeli Holocaust survivors went berserk. Later on, the Rabbi took back his claim or apologized. I don't really remember but he tried to calm down everything.
First of all, we have to learn from what happened to the Jewish people. Maybe your particular rabbi belongs to those saying that the Holocaust happened because there was Zionism.
However, people were brutally murdered and souls were lost. Unfortunately some people seem to forget that.