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B"H
It is much easier for guys !
Guys can go anywhere at almost any time. Easy entrance into any Synagogue, easy access to any chassidishe Tish.
I have to admit that I am jealous. We females always have to look for the women's entrance before entering a chassidic Synagogue. Of course, Chabad is different. Not all the time but many times, men and women use the same entrance. However, in Bnei Brak (Rashi Street), Chabad is separating entrances by gender.
Because I am a woman, I am blocked from many haredi activities. For instance, the Yahrzeit of Rabbi Amram Bloi at the Mishkenot HaRoim Synagogue in Mea Shearim as well as from many Neturei Karta events. Not that I am anti - Zionist but I would like to hear their statements.
When I walked through Mea Shearim last Erev Shabbat, I saw a huge Sukka in front of the Mishkenot Haroim building in Mea Shearim Street. A sign on an outer wall announced that women should stay away from the entrance to the Sukka because of modesty reasons. The problem is that the Sukka is covering the entire women's entrance into the Synagogue. How women are supposed to enter and have a look at the great celebrations at the men's side downstairs ? Are women allowed in at all this year ? If not, it would be a pity.
Don't get me wrong: I am not complaining, as I am happy with being a female and I don't see certain Orthodox restrictions as anti - women. However, especially chassidic groups, should take women much more into consideration, as many of them are interested in teachings and in participating. Not all women are the stupid crowd from upstairs (Ezrat Nashim) and, so far, I have met many great intelligent women at the women's sides. Only mentioning the Toldot Aharon or Kretchnifer (Jerusalem) Rebbitzen.
Of course, I am not happy with many of those restrictions but what can I do ? Accept them or not go at all. Making such a decision makes me think of how glad I am that I am not permanently in Mea Shearim. I can take a small amount of restrictions, accept them and live with them. Nevertheless, after a few hours, I need to get out and escape. See something else and not limiting myself to a life of a housewife.
To quote what I wrote on my blog (here) in reply to Dr. Elana Sztokman's lengthy quotation of you here:
ReplyDeleteActually, first, a disclaimer: unlike Dr. Sztokman, you appear to be some sort of Haredi or Hasid or something along those lines, so perhaps my following comments will be offensive. However, I am going to bank on the possibility that you'd rather see my true views instead of seeing my views as moderated by self-censorship. I hope I am correct in this, and if I am not, please then, my apologies in advance. Now then, to quote myself:
to be continued (I exceeded the 4,096 character-limit for comments)
continued from above
ReplyDeleteThe Haredim do indeed tremble, but not before G-d. It appears that the Haredim are afraid of humans, in more ways than one.
Professor Haym Soloveitchik, in Rupture and Reconstruction, notes that when the Haredim become acclimated to the surrounding non-Haredi culture, a fear sets in, and a reactionism, almost akin some sort of OCD sets in. They feel an instinctive and impelling need to differentiate themselves from the surrounding community, to mark themselves off as an "other". All this is not for the sake of preserving Torah or Judaism, because in many cases, the secular culture in question does not seriously threaten either. Rather, the Haredim seek differentiation and distinction for their own sakes, as values in and of themselves, to be an "other" in the eyes of mankind. The Haredim don't fear G-d; they fear man. It doesn't matter what the surrounding society's values are, or how much the Torah agrees or disagrees with those values; all that matters is being an "other", and if the Torah's values must be jettisoned in the process, so be it.
As Shimonit notes (here):
{{Quote}}
It seems to me that there are Jews who are looking for more things to do to keep themselves occupied. Many of these things involve focusing on women’s (real or perceived) sexuality. In my opinion, these people live in fear. I, on the other hand, do not. I think it’s good for men and women to be around each other enough for them to be used to seeing the other as humans, not just sex objects. Living in Beit Shemesh felt stifling to me, since there was a lot of attention paid to “modesty” and separation of the sexes. (Efrat is a mellower place to live; people do what they want and no one says anything.)
{{End quote}}
There, I replied to her, saying
{{Quote}}
It seems like almost a form of OCD. They so desperately want to be in control of their environments, that they invent new humrot to keep themselves busy.
Moreover, Professor Haym Soloveitchik in Rupture and Reconstruction notes that it is a result of a psychological need to be the “other.” Traditionally, Jews were quite clearly an ostracized minority, living their own distinct lives in their own distinct social bubble. But following the Emancipation and the migration to Western Europe (socio-economic Western Europe, not geographic), Jews ceased to be such a distinct minority. Professor Soloveitchik says the acculturation can be in such things as subtle as the way your body subconsciously beats to music. Therefore, the Haredim are struggling to find ways to distinguish themselves from society, because they have a desperate psychological need to be an oppressed ostracized outcast minority.
I’m reminded of something I read from Rabbi Dr. David Berger (here):
{{Quote}}
[T]here are many Jews who are very uncomfortable saying anything good about non-Jewish attitudes toward Jews. It somehow becomes an article of faith that all Christians have to hate us, that Esav sonei es Yaakov is some sort of necessary, metaphysical reality, and that it’s somehow un-Jewish to limit it in any way. It’s a very strange Jewish characteristic; Jews become uneasy if you tell them that it’s not the case that every non-Jew has always hated all Jews. Somehow it makes Jews happy to hear that they have always been hated by everybody, which is not a good sign in terms of Jewish psychology.
{{End quote of Rabbi Dr. David Berger}}
{{End quote of myself}}
to be continued
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ReplyDeleteIf we wish to compare this Haredi trembling at the feet of man to what an authentic Torah-true Jew would see, we might note Daniel Elazar's words in The Special Character of Sephardi Tolerance:
{{Quote}}
It is difficult for Sephardim to understand the isolationist trend that is dominant among so many Orthodox Ashkenazim, who see the salvation of Judaism only in separating it from those who do not meet current religious standards, which seem to be always moving to the right. Sephardim see no hope or virtue in isolation; to them, the result is a warping of Jews and a distortion of Judaism. Sephardim always have sought to balance their lives both as Jews and as a part of a larger human society. Isolation is not and was not a Sephardic goal -- that would have been a violation of their sense of proportion and balance. Rather, they seek to accept involvement with the larger world and its challenges. Historically, in the world in which most Sephardim lived, there was little occupation and segregation between Jews and non-Jews and often little residential segregation. Living and working together prevented the development of an isolationist spirit.
{{End quote}}
Similarly, the Haredim are deathly afraid of women. Subverting the very intention of the laws of tzniut - which are, after all, meant to emphasize the humanity and spirituality/intellectuality (depending on how one defines b'tzelem elokim) of women by encouraging a deemphasis of physical beauty and sexuality - the Haredim rather emphasis the physicality and sexuality of women, painting them as naught but sexual attractions, and they emphasis the sexually-drawn nature of men, depicting them as naught but sexually-desiring hounds. Both men and women are hyper-sexualized by the Haredim, which is of course precisely the opposite of the intention of the laws of tzniut. The Haredim thus fear women, and come to think of it, fear themselves as well. One should not be surprised if any day now, Freudian sexual neuroses, once known almost exclusively amongst dualistic Euro-Christians, become known amongst the Haredim as well. (See Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits's "A Jewish Sexual Ethics", printed in Crisis and Faith and in Essential Essays on Judaism, for how Freud's notions regarding sexual neuroses depend on the background of a Christian-inspired dualistic ascetic/monastic culture.) Of one who is overly stringent, the Yerushalmi asks, "It wasn't enough what I prohibited you, that you have to prohibit more?" The Haredim will indeed answer that what G-d prohibited was not enough, for their fear of men exceeds their fear of G-d, and man is more stringent than G-d.
Yes, the Haredim tremble at his word, but not at His word.
B"H
ReplyDeleteThanks for your long comment.
Well, I didn't know all your sources before and David Berger I just know from his writings on Chabad; however, i do agree with what you wrote.
According to my experience today, we very much have to differentiate between different haredi groups / directions.
Let's take the most extreme: Mea Shearim
There, the Haredim see a danger coming up. A danger called assimilation, breaking out of society and becoming more modern. But without leaving one's own tradition and heritage. Just more modern in certain ways and behaviours. Not following the old ways of the Chatam Sofer anymore.
And if you become more modern and start changing old ways, then the problem starts. Your children may be even more modern and leave more ways.
The main goal therefore is to get rid of the dangers such as Internet, secular newspapaers, women's rights and education. Nothing new should stream into the group because it could cause trouble and change the entire society. Lets say that women suddenly wants rights and higher education. Then they may start disputes about the Rebbe's decrees.
I wouldn't say that Haredim in general are afrais of humans but many extreme haredi societies are afraid of foreign thoughts, new ways and women.
Too much education may cause a riot within the group and, for instance, the Erloier Rebbe in Jerusalem doesn't encourage his Chassidim to study Kabbalah.
In order to have changes, the Haredim have to demand them themselves otherwise it wouldn't work. Take the Toldot Aharon women: They demanded music classes for their girls. The Rabbis didn't allow them.
However, I have no idea if the girls are being taught music now.
But what we learn from here is that there are haredi women who have demands. Even within the Toldot Aharon.
It is very hard for Sepharadim seeing all this. Basically a woman could come in pants into a Sephardi Synagogue and not much would happen. If anything at all.
I once knew a young woman who walked into Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu's Synagogue (Jerusalem / Givat Sha'ul) in pants. Except for some women starring, nothing happened. And the young woman didn't do this only once but quite frequently.
We can discuss whatever we like but as Mea Shearim looks at the moment, there will not be any change.
It pains me simply because there's no cogent source in any Jewish literature for any of this idiocy.
ReplyDeleteLet's take the most extreme opponent of women's rights in Rabbinic literature, Rabbi Eliezer. (I say he's the most extreme, because, after all, his opinion on women learning Torah was in fact disputed.) Even he agreed that a woman may learn the Greek language. Imagine that: the most strict advocate of limiting the learning of women, and even he permits women to learn Greek - Greek! (Learning Greek certainly had some dangers of un-Jewish influence, and then some!) And yet this rebbe wants to prohibit learning music?
Throughout the Tanakh and Talmud, we find such an emphasis on temporal life and material labor that many accuse Judaism of being materialistic and sensual. The Tanakh takes it for granted that we will be plowing fields and planting vineyards, and the Talmud, in many places, makes the most striking and far-reaching praises for self-sufficient labor, saying that a man without a field is no man, etc. And yet the Haredim want to prohibit secular labor except for the sake of parnassah?
We look at the Rishonim: physicians, scientists, poets, philosophers. Where do we find such a marked distaste for everything not found within the four cubits of the halakhah? And for the record, the Talmud describes the four cubits of halakhah as a disastrous and tragic post-Temple phenomenon; before the Temple's destruction, the Torah encompassed all aspects of life, and it was far larger than an individual's own personal four cubits. So when the Haredim declare their intention to live by the four cubits of halakhah, they are explicitly saying that they want no part in the pre-Hurban ideal Judaism; they are declaring that their portion is in stultified and constricted galut Judaism. This is nigh heresy, I'd say.
to be cont.
cont from above
ReplyDeleteI just read something amazing yesterday: Rabbi S. R. Hirsch, in his essay "Hellenism and Rome" (printed in Judaism Eternal; actually, this essay is a pastiche of two different essays Rabbi Hirsch wrote in Collected Writings, abridged and combined), describes the various cultural features of Greece and Rome, what is acceptable to Judaism and what is not. At great length, Rabbi Hirsch pontificates on how marvelous and beautiful Greek culture is, even saying that without Greek culture as a prerequisite, Judaism cannot thrive. (He doesn't mean Greek culture precisely, but rather the general elements thereof, such as humanism, aesthetic sense, desire for intellectual perfection, etc. The ascetic and monastic ethic of the Christian Church is his example of a Judaism with Greek culture absent.) Rabbi Hirsch says further that what Judaism really must fear is not Hellenism, but rather Roman culture. (He notes that Hellenism can be taken too far, as it was during the Maccabean era, but he says that when Hellenism is properly understood, it poses no danger to Judaism whatsoever, and is rather a blessing to the Torah.) Roman culture he defines as a strict utilitarianism, of militarism and Machiavellian politics, and pursuing everything only for its practical benefit, of being satisfied by "bread and circuses" and bloodbathes in the Colosseum. Rabbi Hirsch concludes his essay saying that most of all, we must beware of learning "science and art" with an eye only to their practical utilitarian benefits, because this is the same Roman culture which destroyed our Temple. Rabbi Hirsch is saying that learning "science and art" only for the sake of their practical benefit, rather than lishma (in another of his essays, he takes everything in Pirkei Avot about using learning as a spade, etc., and applies it all to learning secular knowledge), is part the culture which destroyed the Second Temple! And yet, the Haredim say Rabbi Hirsch's Torah im Derekh Eretz was a hora'at sha'ah!!!!
The Tanakh says we are to a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, a light to the nations, that all the nations of the world will be blessed through us. And yet, the Haredim evince not only a lack of concern for the non-Jewish world - both its people and its learning - but they further evince a downright xenophobia and hatred. Is it such a light thing to renounce the entire task and purpose of the Jewish people? Of what use is putting on tefillin if one is kofer ba-ikar?
I could go on. My point is that any aspect of Haredi ideology which one examines, there isn't the slightest shred of a source in the Torah for their notions.
The Hatam Sofer said "Hiddush assur min ha-Torah". But as someone else said - I forget who - "Ein hiddush gadol mi'ze". The Haredim falsify history, and then proclaim that they cannot accept new ideas because they go against historical Judaism, a historical Judaism they have themselves fabricated, not unlike Winston's job in Orwell's 1984. As someone pointed out to the recent photo-editing/doctoring of the photo in Chaim Berlin's beit midrash (they changed some non-white shirts to white, and they filled in some empty seats), this shows that for the Haredim, the Kuzari's argument is no longer sufficient. We argue that the Torah is authentic because it has been passed down by a strong tradition. But the Haredim fabricate history and falsify the tradition, and so the entire mesorah is impugned by them. If one takes Haredism to its logical conclusion, then there is nothing sacred in Jewish history, and it can all be jettisoned, because it is all a human creation anyway - this is of course the Reform argument, but the Haredim have done so small work in bolstering it.
In your reply to me, you point out that the Haredim aren't technically afraid of humans, but rather, they are afraid of tradition being threatened by modernity.
ReplyDeleteIn other words: they are trying to follow G-d and the Torah, albeit in their own way.
I do in fact realize this. To my blog post, I added the following disclaimer:
"Strictly speaking, my accusations here are not accurate. As Aharon Rose shows in The Haredim: A Defense, the Haredim certainly do have the intention of keeping the Torah as they believe it ought to be kept. But of course, this fact is quite banal and trite; it takes no great intellect or insight to realize that the Haredim honestly believe that what they do is the Torah's desire! What is truly at question is whether there is any reasonable basis to claim that the Torah actually supports what the Haredim do. It is my opinion, however, that the Haredim are omer mutar karov l'meizid, "one who says 'it is permitted' albeit almost in a deliberately sinful way" - someone who mistakenly proclaims something is permitted, in such a way that he honestly believes his proclamation is true, regarding a matter in which it is so obvious that it is actually prohibited, that he is regarded as almost deliberately sinning; this is to be contrasted with an omer mutar b'shogeg, "one who says 'it is permitted' in ignorance", one who makes the same proclamation but regarding a matter which is not so clear, and so his error is regarded as accidental and not deliberate. That is to say, I believe it so obvious that the Haredim are in error, that I regard their sin as nearly tantamount to deliberate rebellion against the Torah. They are not omer mutar b'shogeg, but rather they are omer mutar karov l'meizid. As such, I have taken the liberty of describing their actions and intentions as if they were done b'yad ramah (in a deliberately rebellious way), even if factually speaking, this is not actually the case. Of course, just as Rabbi S. R. Hirsch considered only the Reform leaders to be guilty of rebellion, and not the lay masses, this may be the case as well with the Haredim today. Be that as it may, for a more dispassionate and objectively accurate examination of the Haredim by me, see my On Orthodox Regard for Non-observant Jews (Thoughts on Kashruth Certification Policies), and on Sociology Leading to Polemicism in Halakhah (on German Neo-Orthodox Responses to Reform and Haredi Responses to Modernity), Part Two ("Sociology Leading to Polemicism in Halakhah: on German Neo-Orthodox Responses to Reform and Haredi Responses to Modernity"), section II (s. v. "In the previous essay, to which this present one is a sequel, we noted that...")."
B"H
ReplyDeleteThe thing we should never do is generalizing ! Actually there are many Haredim who are more modern but, speaking of Mea Shearim, many only in their own home and not outside. It all depends on society and sometimes you can exchange modern ideas with friends. Of course, you have to choose to whom you can tell what.
There are Haredim who are into computers, have academic professions such as doctors, scientists, etc. Not everyone is kept a dummy. Nevertheless, I think that American or Haredim from abroad are more educated than those from Mea Shearim or other many Israeli ones. There is also a difference between the "Beit Yaakov" in London and in Jerusalem or Bnei Brak.
When I look at the Rambam, I see what we miss today. Who in the Edah HaCharedit is even admitting that the six days of creation symbolize Billions of years, as a day did not necessarily consist of 24 hours then. G - d doesn't know any time and is not time bound or limited !
I don't think that any Israeli "Talmud Torah" (haredi boy's school) or any Israeli "Beit Yaakov" (haredi girl's school) teaches science or, let alone, philosophie. Who does actually study the Rambam's "Moreh Nevuchim" in its entirety ?
Today you follow a Rabbi and keep your brain shut. Many Haredi are academic and some are very much in all kinds of philosophies but the masses are rather passive. And this is a pity because G - d gave us intellect and the ability to do something.
B"H
ReplyDeleteDue to Sukkot:
I am not online all the time !!!
So some of your comments have to wait for a while.
How is Machon Me'ir these days ? Busy sitting in the Sukka ?
You should come to Mea Shearim in the evenings this week and have a look into all the Synagogues. Everything is open !
Indeed. I completely agree with you wholeheartedly.
ReplyDeleteSurely there are individual Haredim - both laypersons and rabbis - who are more open and intellectually vibrant, but the system as a whole is stultified and decrepit. Similarly, at my old yeshiva, there were many individual rabbis whom I'd characterize as open-minded (one was proud of his having learned under Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits, a left-wing gadfly of Modern Orthodoxy), but the overall system there was Haredi-Leumi, and much less intellually open.
Rabbi Asher Benzion Buchman, in his article U-Madua Lo Yeresem, tries to argue that were RambaN (whom the Haredim follow over RambaM) alive today, he'd be a rationalist like RambaM. His basic argument is that in RambaN's time, science and the supernatural were essential indistinguishable; RambaN himself remarks, for example, that Aristotle is the ultimate heretic because he denies the efficacy of magic which we can see for ourselves with our own eyes. RambaN's student Rashba adduces the magnet as an example of a supernatural magic device which science will never explain. Rabbi Buchman argues that were RambaN and Rashba alive today to see what science has wrought, they'd themselves admit that RambaM's approach is the correct one. (RambaM's Aristotelian science is of course in error, but the method in which he treated that science is the same as any Orthodox scientist's today. The Moreh Nevukhim teaches us very little substantive anymore, but it teaches us a wealth of methodology which we can apply ourselves to contemporary science.)
Rabbi Dr. Marc D. Angel has valiantly tried to show that what Judaism needs today is Maimonideanism. See his lecture Rambam and the Philosophers: What Reason Can and Cannot Attain (the lecture is an exercise in historical fiction, Rabbi Angel telling the audience what he'd say to Spinoza were he alive back then, to keep Spinoza "on the derekh"), and his forthcoming book, Maimonides, Spinoza and Us: Toward an Intellectually Vibrant Judaism. Rabbi Angel also writes prolifically on Judeo-Spanish Sephardic Judaism, in which he inter alia makes a case for a more intellectually vibrant and humanistic Judaism. See particularly his The Rythms of Jewish Living: A Sephardic Approach and his Foundations of Sephardic Spirituality: The Inner Life of the Jews of the Ottoman Empire. He also publishes a journal, Conversations, whose mission is described in the About page for his Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals.
B"H
ReplyDeleteI am sure that the Rambam would faint today if he saw the haredi education in certain groups. :-)
Lets look at the Kabbalah during the Middle Ages: Many Kabbalist just tried to experiment with symbols and ideas. very fascinating but if anyone was doing so today, he wwould surely referred to as a heretic.
Judaism does live from intellect as well and what we need is intellectual rabbis.