Sunday, June 7, 2009

Reb Arele

B"H




The Toldot Aharon founder Rebbe Aharon (Arele) Roth (Ratha) in the early days.
Posted by Miriam Woelke at 11:12 AM
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24 comments:

  1. AnonymousJune 7, 2009 at 7:58 PM

    is this the rebbe that got into 'trouble' for marrying the french giyores?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Miriam WoelkeJune 7, 2009 at 9:12 PM

    B"H

    The Gioyeret Ruth who also took the famous kidnapped child Yossele to the States ?

    No, you mean Rabbi Amram Blau (Bloi), the head of the Neturei Karta until he passed away in the 70ies. Rabbi Bloi was married to Ruth !

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  3. SimchaJune 8, 2009 at 2:50 AM

    Thank you for this picture. As he was very makpid about being photographed - as were most of the zadikim especially from Hungary, Galicia and EY, there are very few pictures of him. His seforim have been very important in my personal growth. Re: R' Amram Blau - I met him when I visited Yerushalayim as a teenager - a heilige yid zy"o. PS: I have recently discovered your site - enjoy it for the most part.

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  4. Miriam WoelkeJune 8, 2009 at 7:23 AM

    B"H

    I only know two pictures of Rebbe Roth. This one and a second one where he is a little older.

    Its a pity that he doesn't see what he started. Today's Toldot Aharon are growing and growing. It is unbelievable how many people they already have.

    Rabbi Amram Bloi was definitely a character we miss today. Not that I agree too much with the Neturei Karta but to me it seems that all the old characters are dying out.

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  5. AnonymousJune 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM

    maybe you can dedicate a post to reb amram and tell everyone why he married a giyoret

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  6. Miriam WoelkeJune 8, 2009 at 12:49 PM

    B"H

    I have been thinking about that for quite a while. Actually Ruth wrote her biography and I need to get hold of the book.

    I wonder myself how the Rabbi got this kind of Shidduch !

    By the way, Rabbi Blau appears here:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amram_Blau

    There is a book by the former Mossad guy Isser Harel about the kidnapped child Yossele also describing Ruth. Maybe I'll find something in there.

    And, last but not least, Rabbi Amram Blau should have his Yahrzeit soon.

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  7. AnonymousJune 8, 2009 at 3:29 PM

    how he got the shiduch, its writen in the wiki

    Blau's first wife, Hinda, died in 1963. Because of an injury he sustained, either from shrapnel during the siege of Jerusalem in 1948[5] or at the hands of Israeli police at a Shabbat demonstration in the 1950s,[2] he could not remarry a woman who had been born Jewish.[

    he couldnt have nay kids,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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  8. Miriam WoelkeJune 8, 2009 at 11:15 PM

    B"H

    Why could he, as a Jew, not remarry a Jewish born woman ???

    I have never heard about such a thing !!!

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  9. AnonymousJune 9, 2009 at 2:47 AM

    THis is actually not R' Ahron Roth, rather it is his son in law, R' Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Kohn, the father of the present Toldos Ahron Rebbe and Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe.

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  10. Miriam WoelkeJune 9, 2009 at 9:02 AM

    B"H

    I was waiting for that statement !!!

    Last week, this picture was also published on a haredi forum and there were different opinions as well. The majority actually claimed that the picture shows Rabbi Arele.

    I will try finding the second picture of Rabbi Roth and compare the two.

    I think the only axact answer we get from the Toldot Aharon themselves. It looks like I have to print out the pictures and ask one of the TA members.

    ReplyDelete
  11. AnonymousJune 9, 2009 at 12:56 PM

    do you know what a כרות שפכה is? he isnt allowed to marry a normal jewish women.

    so he married a giyores

    what did u do all your years in yashivah??

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  12. AnonymousJune 9, 2009 at 8:55 PM

    "Why could he, as a Jew, not remarry a Jewish born woman ???"

    "Because of an injury he sustained, either from shrapnel during the siege of Jerusalem in 1948[5] or at the hands of Israeli police at a Shabbat demonstration in the 1950s...he couldnt have nay kids"

    Devurim perek chuf gimmel, pusik beis (23:2, ki seitze)

    "Lo yuvo petziah dake i'chris shufche b'khal hashem"

    The pshat of Rambam (Hilchos Isserei Bieh perek Tes Vuv) is that a man whose reproductive organs have been damaged so that he is impotent, may not marry a yiddeshe maidel...thus his marriage to a giyoress

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  13. Miriam WoelkeJune 9, 2009 at 9:40 PM

    B"H

    I know that there is a Gemara or even a Mishna concerning a marriage between two Jews not having children. About the divorce after a couple of years and then the man remarrying another Jewish woman and what, if again, he doesn't have children.

    I admit that I didn't know the law you mentioned above.

    But what about a Jew of an advanced age. Let's say he is already in his 50ies and he wants to marry a Jewish wife. Does the Halacha still apply to such cases or only to people who could / should still be "productive" ?

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  14. AnonymousJune 9, 2009 at 11:48 PM

    There is a distinction between being old and 'damaged.'

    Besides, just because a man is old doesn't mean he cannot have kids ;)

    (in law school, the concept of the 'fertile octogenarian' is studied in Trusts & Estates)

    However, what you are referring to is not a man with damaged reproductive organs.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Just Passing ThroughJune 10, 2009 at 1:53 AM

    איסורי ביאה טז

    פצוע דכא וכרות שופכה שנשאו בת ישראל, ובעלו--לוקין, שנאמר "לא יבוא פצוע דכא וכרות שופכה" (דברים כג,ב); ומותרין לישא גיורת ומשוחררת. ואפילו כוהן שהוא פצוע דכא--מותר לישא גיורת ומשוחררת, שאינו בקדושתו; ואפילו נתינה או אחת מן הספקות, מותרת לו

    Issurei Bi'ah 16:1

    A man with maimed testicles or a severed member who married a native-born Jewess and engaged in sexual relations is punished by lashes, as [Devarim 23:2] states: "A person with maimed testicles or a severed member may not enter the congregation of Gd." Such a man may marry a female convert or a freed maid-servant. Even a Kohen with maimed testicles may marry a female convert or a freed maid-servant, because the holiness [of the kehuna] does not rest upon him. He is permitted to marry even a female netin or a woman whose status is in doubt.

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  16. AnonymousJune 10, 2009 at 7:08 AM

    Shame on you Miriam for saying that you miss Amram Blau!!! You've demonstrated your Neturai Karta sympathies a number of times on this site, and by also by visiting their shul in Mea Shearim. You should be more civilized.

    ReplyDelete
  17. AnonymousJune 10, 2009 at 9:13 AM

    is it so awful to marry a giyoress?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Miriam WoelkeJune 10, 2009 at 10:03 AM

    B"H

    I am going to look up the Rambam's Mishna Torah (Sefer Kedusha / Biah). I really didn't know this.

    However, doesn't it sound a kind of rassist when such a man can only marry a convert. Why is the convert less than a born Jewish woman ?

    I am not criticizing the Torah but it does seem a little strange to me.

    I emntioned this to an aquaintance of mine last night and said that why Rabbi Blau needed to marry at all. A second time after his first wife passed away. Why not staying alone instead of facing all the trouble after the wedding to Ruth. Being banned from Mea Shearim and having to move to Bnei Brak for a certain amount of time.

    The answer of the person I spoke to was very emotional. She said that Rabbi Blau shouldn't have stayed alone. Why not marry again ? Maybe a man doesn't want to be alone, he needs someone to talk to, whatever. Just considering the issue from the human side of life.

    To the Neturei Karta:
    I don't symphatize with them but do understand their reasons. Not those reasons making some of them supporting Achmadinejad but the reasons causing them to reject the present State of Israel.

    I write about different groups and I do include the Neturei Karta, as well as Satmar by the way.
    When I say Neturei Karta I do mean the one's with Rabbi Yoelish Kroiz and not the crazy part under Rabbi Israel Hirsch (formerly run by his father Rabbi Moshe Hirsch).

    And when I say that I miss Rabbi Blau:

    You have to consider that the Neturei Karta in Mea Shearim lost plenty of power after Rabbi Blau died. Today there is no real leadership. At least not such a charismatic type.
    And his former follower Meshi Zahav is somewhere else but not with the Edah etc. anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  19. AnonymousJune 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM

    Interesting about reasons not to marry a Jewish-born woman. I anything written about a Jewish-born woman who is unable (or no longer able) to have children? I know many religious women who have had to have their reproductive organs removed due to cancer--some at a very young age. So they are supposed to stay alone--or look for someone "less"? This sounds very judgmental. Surely all the facts must be considered before making such statements!

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  20. SimchaJune 11, 2009 at 2:15 AM

    To Anonymous who said shame for missing R' Amram Blau - as I wrote in an earlier comment above I had the zchis to meet R' Amram when I came to E"Y as a teenager. He was a great oheiv yisroel - the cries of "Shabbos" at protests were the cries of pain in his heart to see Chilil Shabbos in the holy city. He wanted only good for yidden and Eretz Yisroel - hence his opposition to the Zionist State. Please do not confuse Palestinian flag wavers and the Achmidinijad kissers with the Naturei karta of R' Amram Blau zy"o. PS: I named my second son Amram after R' Amram Blau.

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  21. Miriam WoelkeJune 11, 2009 at 6:54 AM

    B"H

    I see the main problem (regarding anti - Zionism) in misinterpretations ! People may not know the facts about the subject.

    No one should think that all anti - Zionists are having a busy travel route to Iran and deny the Holocaust.

    Especially the Neturei Karta has different branches and is not only THE Neturei Karta, meaning ONE group.

    I can only recommend to people to deal with the topic. I am not saying you have to agree but, at least, get an idea what it is all about.

    I have explained anti - Zionism here:



    http://shearim.blogspot.com/2007/12/talmudic-reason-for-anti-zionism.html

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  22. AnonymousJune 24, 2010 at 10:30 PM

    i recently got a booklet from the TAY in celebration of the shul in beit shemesh and they printed this photo as the previous rebbe Rav Avrohom Yitzhock Kahn

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  23. Miriam WoelkeJune 25, 2010 at 12:02 PM

    B"H

    To me, the photo looks like Reb Arele but I should show it to the Rebbitzen and ask her.

    ReplyDelete
  24. AnonymousNovember 14, 2010 at 8:32 PM

    yes definately ask because in the TAY publication they list it as Rav Avrohom Yitzhock

    ReplyDelete

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