B"H
I cannot refrain from saying something personal inbetween:
Not only since the whole affair with the Mea Shearim mother started, I know to which direction I belong. The more I talk, have been talking and probably will talk to national religious Jews (Dati Le'umi), the more I notice the hatred of many of them towards haredi society. The vast majority of the national religious doesn't have any idea about the haredi world but thinks to have a right adding inappropriate comments.
I may not be the best haredi in the world but I am glad that I left national religious society many years ago.
If I should say so before Tisha Be'Av ?
Whoever is asking this question should first look at the hatred of the Dati Le'umi towards Haredim.
Wednesday, July 22, 2009
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Not that two wrongs make a right, but have you ever heard charedim talk about the "mizrochnikim"? I went to a National Religious high school on Yirmiyahu street, and right next door was a boys' cheder. During recess, the boys would hang out the windows of the cheder, throw things at us, and call us Zionist pigs - all while their rebbes looked on.
ReplyDeleteAnother example - someone I know grew up in a very Haredi environment in Israel...and then married a close relative of mine. My close relative became haredi, but he still had to deal with the rest of us. Once we all got used to each other, he would sing us the songs they would sing in school etc. - basically about how the mizrochnikim are pigs, apikorsim, etc.
I personally don't know any nasty songs sung by NR kids about haredim.
And as for national religious hating charedim - it's odd to say that since there is a definite trend among the national religious to become more and more haredi. I would say that NR don't hate haredim, admire a lot of what they do, but have trouble relating to/understanding the million dollars in damage to Jerusalem done by the protesters, over one mother. I've really tried to understand why this one woman was "zocheh" to so much attnetion, but I really can't.
So please. Take a look in the mirror of your community, and realize that none of us are perfect. Especially before tisha b'av.
B"H
ReplyDelete@ Miriam
None of us is perfect, that's correct. And there are bad comments on both side.
However, what many national religious totally mix up are the different haredi directions. You mentioned the case in Yirmeyahu Street and it may have been a school belonging to Satmar.
If there are such incidents then many ( I am not generalizing) national religous think it is the whole haredi society. All Haredim would be anti - Zionist, yell, demonstrate, be fanatic, whatever.
What people have to realize is the variety within haredi society !
There are many different directions and opinions and people should at least know some of them and their ideologies.
You raise problems to think about for everyone. I am orthodox. When I came to Israel I experienced for the first time the "National Religious". I am not like them. But I was not born Haredi. Yes, I like many things about them, and some groups more than others, but I know I am never going to be a part of that society. So now I have to think--just where can I fit in? I just want to be a good Jew, but with all the infighting it seems that no matter where I turn I am expected to be radical and choose sides. Seems I can't just like a fellow Jew because he or she is a good person--now I have to choose a side! We really need to ask Hashem for help!
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteI am not frocing myself into any society. In fact, I am not a group person at all and don't need to belong to a firm group.
Nevertheless, I know what I don't want !
If I just knew what I want .... :-)
I've gotten to know plenty of charedi ideology, even the "nice" kind that doesn't cause millions of dollars in damage to public property (ironically, property that was paid for with the taxes of dati leumi and secular people who are actually the friers who pay arnona) and it still doesn't impress me.
ReplyDeleteWhen the majority of charedim become productive members of Israeli society ie: pay taxes (instead of grabbing everyone else's through kitzbaot), physically defend and contribute to the country through national or army service like the majority of the rest of Israel, there will be be a way to have respectful dialogue between charedim and the rest of Israeli society. Until then, I guess we're out of luck.
And I agree with the previous commenter that D'l don't have hateful songs about charedim. Do you know why? Because D'L generally don't have a superiority complex whereby we think we are better than everyone else because we keep more chumrot.
B"H
ReplyDeleteBut those are all the old stereotypes again: not working, using tax money and not going to the army.
First of all, there is something like the NACHAL HACHAREDI !
Not everyone is going but thousands of Haredim would like to go if there weren't too many society issues involved.
Many Haredim do work. Especially since Ex - Finance Minister Netanyahu cut down the children's money. However, many Haredim work within their own communities; especially those in Mea Shearim. This don't people realize.
Using tax money ?
You have to define which Haredim are using tax money, as countless of them do not accept government money. There are always differences between haredi groups.
"What people have to realize is the variety within haredi society !
ReplyDeleteThere are many different directions and opinions and people should at least know some of them and their ideologies."
All that is true. BUT it is also true that the charedi community tends not to notice the differences between the flavors of Dati Leumi.
I have been yelled at for charedim that I defile the land with my TV - I DON'T have one & none of my NR friends do either! but we are all painted with one broad brush.
Typically, any animosity from the Anglo NR world towards the Charedim began with very negative encounters with members of the charedi community.
B"H
ReplyDeleteThis is true but also many Haredim are able to differiate between a Chardalnik and all the other directions. The hardcore doesn't care but considers everyone Dati Le'umi as Zionist. I know such people but I also do know others.
When Machon Me'ir or whatever national religious Yeshiva or seminary people come for the Tish at the Toldot Aharon, they are treated nicely !
Everyone Jewish can come to the Toldot Aharon (to the Neturei Karta or the Mishkenot HaRoim I wouldn't necessarily go with a knitted kipa) and no one is being turned away.
However, what I noticed is that there are national religious Yeshiva guys who do not always behave in the best manner at a chassidic Tish. There are some who are just giggeling about anything the Chassidim do.
National religious girls, and I am talking about the Noam ones, tend to sing in public. At a Tish, they suddenly start singing and swinging at the Ezrat Nashim.
Okay, there are only women around but still. You don't do such things. No swinging and no singing.
I think that teachers accompanying these guests should inform their students before entering Mea Shearim or a chassidic Synagogue.
I can assure you that Israeli national religious also have all kinds of prejudices. Every Thursday afternoon, I am teaching a small Noam - group with their homework and last week, they really made some bad comments without any knowledge about the haredi world.
"Many Haredim do work. "
ReplyDeleteI don't deny that many charedim do work (and you're putting words in my mouth because I never said they didn't)- I'm sure they do- off the books. Which is why they pay little to no taxes.
Nachal Charedi is a joke in the charedi world and is a one way ticket to shidduch cherem- at least be a little bit honest about your own community. Who are most of the boys in NC? Chardalnikim and NR! Would you really allow your own son to join when he has the chance to sit and learn and maybe be the next Godol Hador? (I'm still waiting for this massive godol hador factory/kollel system to produce at least one viable candidate)
Countless charedim don't accept tax money? Really? They don't allow the municipality to pick up the garbage from their neighborhoods, even after their destructive riots? They don't allow the iriya to put in new sidewalks and playgrounds? Fascinating. The only tiny group that I've heard of that really doesn't accept government money is Toldos Ahron/Satmar. I think most average Charedi Joes are happy to get whatever money they can, and many think they have it coming to them.
"Okay, there are only women around but still. You don't do such things." Actually, you don't do such things. Other frum women do. It's time charedim learned they are not the only Jews in the world and start accepting other yidden, even if they do things a bit differently. There's no aveira in singing and dancing with other women. You don't dance at weddings behind a mechitza? How are you mesamaeach the kallah? By lecturing her?
B"H
ReplyDeleteStarting with your last paragraph: Who are the Haredim ? Which ones are you talking about ?
This is the basic mistake most people do by pointing at "THE HAREDIM".
When you look at chassidic weddings there is something calles Mitzveh Tanz.
Of course, you can say that this is a strange custom but you always have to consider how certain chassidic girls grow up. So, to them it may be not that strange.
There are many more groups not accepting money from the government. Smaller groups outsiders don't even hear about. Such as Dushinsky, for instance. Or the Mishkenot HaRoim. But many others as well.
Unfortunately the Nachal HaCharedim is more for Chardalnikim but also quite a few Chabadnikim are to be found. Some years ago, they even had a Toldot Ahron Chassid.
Shidduch Cherem ? It depends where you direction is. If you are less than Ponibezh or not really in a frame, you can find a Shidduch. It really depends on the individual.
Mea Shearim didn't hinder the municipality collecting the garbage. In fact, the Toldot Aharon arranged a private company cleaning up. However, I dond't know if all the garbage was thrown away. Parts of it, at least, was dumped in front of the Ministry of Education in Shivtei Israel Street.:-)