Tuesday, August 24, 2010

Chabad Meshichistim dancing in Safed

B"H


Last Mozzaei Shabbat, we saw at least 50 Chabad Meshichistim dancing with their yellow Meshiach flags in the Old City of Safed.
Especially Safed is quite full with those Meshichistim.














Note:

Not all Chabadnikim believe that the seventh and last Lubavitcher Rebbe (died in June 1994) is the Meshiach ! One should be careful only to look at one side.


Photos: Miriam Woelke

12 comments:

  1. Wrong. all chabadnikim believe it. But some say it loud while others keep it quiet

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  2. B"H

    I thought that Yehuda Krinsky is not a Meshichist !

    I heard different Chabadnikim defining their point of view:

    a) The Rebbi is the Meshiach.

    b) The Rebbi was not but had the potential.

    c) The Rebbi had the potential and there were certain signs.

    d) The Rebbe is not Meshiach.


    However, many don't say it out loud because they depend on donations.:-)

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  3. I'm a Lubavitcher Chosid (non-Meshichist). Without entering in the eternal and endless debate between Meshichisten and non-Meshichisten, the opinion prevaling is that the Rebbe is a potential candidate to be Moshiach. If we were worthy during his lifetime he would have been revealed as being the actual Moshiach. But Gimmel Tammuz happened. He may be Moshiach IF and only IF he is resurrected as Moshiach (because Moshiach can come from the dead). As this is not the case for now (because the Rebbe is niftar since Gimmel Tammuz), the Rebbe is only a potential candidate, but since Gimmel Tammuz, it is forbidden and against Torah to claim that he is Moshiach because he is not alive in the physical sense of the term.

    In other words, there is a difference between before Gimmel Tammuz (when it was legitimate to believe that the Rebbe was the best candidate to be Moshiach (it was not something that only Lubavitchers believed, but even many Charedi leaders)and after Gimmel Tammuz (when since the Rebbe is no longer alive, it is illegitimate to claim that he is Moshiach, because it is a title that can only be ascribed to someone among the living). So since Gimmel Tammuz, it's only a hope, a prayer, because there is still the possibility that the Rebbe be chosen among those who died to be the Moshiach (the Rebbe is a candidate among others, so we are not saying that if Moshiach comes from the dead, it will be for sure the Rebbe. For instance, it is written in the Gemara: "If Moshiach comes from the living, it will be Rabbenu HaKadosh; if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel the Prophet.") but because we don't know what are G-d's plans, we should proclaim such things as "The Rebbe is Moshiach".

    I'd like to quote the answer the Rebbe gave to a Chosid who asked the Rebbe if he should publicize that the Rebbe was Moshiach. The Rebbe said the following thing: "There is no Mitzvah in the Torah to publicize who is Moshiach, but there is a Mitsvah to love every Jew as oneself."

    This is our mission, our raison-d-être as Lubavitchers, as Chassidim of our dear Rebbe. Everything else is just hot air, just speculation.

    ReplyDelete
  4. B"H

    Just one brief comment:

    Meshiach cannot raise from the dead !!!

    See Rambam's Mishnah Torah / Hilchot Melachim.


    This is exactly the reason why Chabad Meshichistim stress that the Rebbe didn't die but became invisible until it is time to reveal himself.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Rambam maybe not, not the Talmud in Sanhedrin said that it's an acceptable opinion (and in fact, nobody in the Talmud didn't object when Rav said in Sanhedrin 98b "if he comes from the dead, it will be Daniel the Prophet"). Rashi does confirm that possibility. Rashi's first interpretation (It is well known that Rashi's first interpretation is his favored interpretation) of this quote provides further clarification of this point. Rashi restates Rav's position as follows:

    "This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabbeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

    The absence of any objection made to Rav's statement or Rashi's interpretation of it, means that among the true Torah sages of the Talmud, the notion that Moshiach could come from the dead was always accepted and uncontested.

    Some references in the Zohar and other classical Kabbalah texts also teach that Moshiach can (it is not to say that "he will", but it's a possibility) come from the dead.

    By exemple, in "Yeshuas Meshicho", by Rav Don Yitschak Abarbanel, it is written:

    "Do not be amazed by the fact that Moshiach can be one of those who will rise in Techiyah, because this possibility was already considered by our sages in Gemara Sanhedrin." (Iyun Sheni, Perek Alef)

    In the Sedei Chemed, it is written:

    "There are two ways the redemption may materialize…if the Jews posses great merit, the advent of Moshiach will be of the miraculous and spiritual order, as it is written in Daniel- 'Moshiach will arrive atop a heavenly cloud'…concerning this possible manner of Moshiach's coming the Gemara states 'if he comes from the dead it will be Daniel Ish Chamudos.'" (Peas Sadeh-Maareches Alef, Os Ayin).

    An other reference: In Daniel 12:12, it is written:

    Fortunate is he who waits and reaches days of one thousand, three hundred, and thirty-five.

    On this passage, Rashi comments the following:

    Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our King Messiah is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again. So we find in Midrash Ruth, and so did Rabbi Eleazar HaKalir establish (in the concluding poem of the morning service of the portion dealing with the month of Nissan): “and he will be concealed from them six weeks of years.”

    Meshichists are wrong in declaring that the Lubavicther Rebbe is alive and well and that he is the Moshiach despite the fact that he is niftar. But, there is a possibility in classic Jewish texts for the Moshiach to be resurrected.

    ReplyDelete
  6. The Talmud in Sanhedrin 98b said that it's an acceptable opinion. Rashi's first interpretation (It is well known that Rashi's first interpretation is his favored one) restates Rav's position as follows:

    "This means, that if Moshiach were to come from those who are living now, it will be Rabbeinu HaKadosh…but if (Moshiach) is to come from those who have died already, it will be 'Daniel Ish Chamudos'..."

    The absence of any objection made to Rav's statement or Rashi's interpretation of it, means that among the true Torah sages of the Talmud, the notion that Moshiach could come from the dead was always accepted and uncontested.

    There are other references:

    By exemple, in "Yeshuas Meshicho", by Rav Don Yitschak Abarbanel, it is written:

    "Do not be amazed by the fact that Moshiach can be one of those who will rise in Techiyah, because this possibility was already considered by our sages in Gemara Sanhedrin." (Iyun Sheni, Perek Alef)

    In the Sedei Chemed, it is written:

    "There are two ways the redemption may materialize…if the Jews posses great merit, the advent of Moshiach will be of the miraculous and spiritual order, as it is written in Daniel- 'Moshiach will arrive atop a heavenly cloud'…concerning this possible manner of Moshiach's coming the Gemara states 'if he comes from the dead it will be Daniel Ish Chamudos.'" (Peas Sadeh-Maareches Alef, Os Ayin).

    On Daniel 12:12, Rashi comments the following:

    Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our King Messiah is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again. So we find in Midrash Ruth, and so did Rabbi Eleazar HaKalir establish (in the concluding poem of the morning service of the portion dealing with the month of Nissan): “and he will be concealed from them six weeks of years.”

    Meshichists are wrong in declaring that the Lubavicther Rebbe is alive and well and that he is the Moshiach despite the fact that he is niftar. But, there is a possibility in classic Jewish texts for the Moshiach to be resurrected.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I made a mistake. In my previous comment, I wrote: but because we don't know what are G-d's plans, we should proclaim such things as "The Rebbe is Moshiach".

    Of course, I wanted to write: we shouldn't proclaim such things as "The Rebbe is Moshiach".

    And by the way, I do confirm that Rabbi Krinsky is definitelly non-Meshichist (and even anti-Meshichist). In the early 90's when the Rebbe became ill he was (and is still) the leader of those who were opposing the Meshichist activities.

    I'll give you only one such exemple:

    The Mishichistim Have Their Own Agenda - Which Has Nothing to Do with Moshiach!

    Here it is worth noting something very strange:

    When Rabbi Kahan was the "chief speaker" for the Mishichistim, there was an occasion when he was planning to speak at a Mishichist gathering in 770 (in a way that was contrary to the Rebbe's wishes - as he afterwards confessed. He wanted to promote the Rebbe as King Moshiach). Rabbi Krinsky of Agudas Chassidei Chabad told the directors of the broadcast network WLCC to immediately cut the connection so that Chassidim listening through the "hook-up" should not have to hear Rabbi Kahan's wayward lecture.

    Wow, was there a commotion! How could it be? To cut off the hook up in the middle of the chozer Rabbi Yoel Kahan's speech! Isn't he the "most reliable" one we have when it comes to the Rebbe's Sichos!... What great chutzpa of Rabbi Krinsky to interrupt him! The Mishichistim cried foul - and then resolved to do what they could to "terrorize" Rabbi Krinsky in retaliation...This war continues till today.

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  8. B"H

    1. Can you tell me the year when the incident with Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Kahan happened ?

    2. To your statements:

    I know that Chabad Meshichistim consider our times as "Techiat HaMetim" but, as we all see, it is not.

    Many comments you state, especially from Sanhedrin, refer to the times of the Techiya and not to our days (because we have not yet arrived in those days).
    Furthermore, there is a Machloket in Sanhedrin whether Meshiach is coming after the Techiyah or before. Fact is: No one knows for sure !

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  9. 1. It happened in the late 5753 (in the early 90's, after the Rebbe's stroke when he was unable to speak untill Gimmel Tammuz 5754). There are many other incidents that happened before Gimmel Tammuz in which Rabbi Krinsky intervened against the Meshichist camp, publically and privatelly.
    2. It was never said that all those references were speaking of an other period than the period of the Techiya. This is precisely why I said that now that the Rebbe is no longer alive, what Meshichists are saying concerning the Rebbe is misleading, because we don't know what are G-d's plans and how things will happen. Untill Techiyas HaMeisim, the Meshichist propaganda is just hot air, just speculation, and even anti-Torah and against everything the Rebbe stands for.

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  10. B"H

    A Chabadnik I know told me that we should concentrate on what the Rebbe himself said and not listen too much what others have been claiming after his passing.

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  11. I would like to share the following with you, and this has been the position of the Rebbe till Gimmel Tammuz:

    In 5745, during the Rebbe's farbrengen, Chassidim sang a tune with the words "Soldiers of the Rebbe, soldiers of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, he will lead us with Tanks to our Land..." The Rebbe suddenly interrupted the singing of the song, and spoke sternly and sharply in a deeply pained and loud voice. Some of the Rebbe's less-shern words were as follows:

    "There are some 'Spitz Chabadniken' who think that specifically they know what has to be done and how it is necessary to behave, and when everyone around them tries to tell them that what they are doing is detrimental, it has no effect on them whatsoever, for they think, 'Who are they to tell us! None of them are on our level, for we are 'Spitz Chabadniken!'

    "The intention in this: As a result of what they are saying, the things they are printing, and the songs they are singing, etc. - they are responsible for distancing of scores of Jews from the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, learning Chassidus, and conduct in the ways of Chassidus. Not only this, but even Jews who had already started learning Chassidus - now they have stopped learning Chassidus because of the activities of these people! Not only do these activities not bring closer the distant, but on the contrary, they even distance those who had already started getting close! Even when they try to wrap themselves in a cloak of holiness, "a silken kaftan and gartel" - it does not change at all the fact that thereby they alienate Jews from the teachings of Chassidus, together with everything else that ensues. All of this is squarely their responsibility...!

    "Why don't they follow in the way our Rebbeim paved for us! No one has any need for their 'innovation,' especially as the only thing it serves is to foment new divisiveness against the Baal Shem Tov and the Alter Rebbe, rachmana litzlan...!

    "Therefore, let it be known: Anyone who continues with these activities - is an opponent who fights against Chassidus Chabad, against Nosi Doreinu, the Baal Shem Tov, until Malka Moshicha... who desires and longs to come and redeem us, only he must wait until there is an increase in spreading the wellsprings to the outside. These people, meanwhile, are decreasing the number of Jews learning Chassidus, rachmana litzlan!"

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  12. Typical debates. Endless Circle.

    Check Chabadtalk.com for the full fun debate.

    Just to clarify.

    Rambam doesnt say Moshiach cant come from the dead. He says that Moshiach cant come from someone who was killed.

    None of the Rishonim take issue with Moshiach coming from the dead.

    "If he is from the dead he is Daniel" Daniel isnt even from Shevet Yehudah! So obviously this Gemara is deeper than Pshat.

    The maysah is when the Rebbe was alive they said he couldnt be Moshiach, after his histalkus, they say he cant be Rebbe so who cares? Nu?

    Moshiach now!

    ReplyDelete