B"H
The Israeli haredi news site "Kikar Shabbat" is publishing a Video from Rabbi Shimon Rosenberg's speech last night. As I wrote yesterday, Rabbi Shimon Rosenberg, together with his grandchild Moishi Holtzberg, were invited to the offical Independence Day celebrations by the State of Israel. Before the official celebration Chabad tried to persuade Rabbi Rosenberg to cancel his participation but the Rabbi didn't.
Last night he spoke and not only Haredim noticed that the Rabbi said "ERETZ ISRAEL" and NOT "MEDINAT ISRAEL" !
Whereas the expression "MEDINAT ISRAEL" refers to the present State of Israel, "ERETZ ISRAEL" refers to the biblical Israel as well as a future Israel after the Ge'ula (Redemption) and the arrival of the true Jewish Meshiach.
At the ceremony, the one who light the torch must say: "For the glory of the State of Israel." If Rabbi Rosenberg had said such sentence, he would have been lynched by the whole Chabad. So, instead, he decided to say "In the glory of the state of Eretz Yisrael." It was deliberate, because the sentence is ambigious. For the secular, it might refer to the State of Israel, but for those in the know, choosing "the state of Eretz Yisrael" instead of "the State of Israel" implies that he is not referring to the state which presently exists, but to the one we are waiting with the coming of Moshiach, because the state we have nowadays is a forgery and has never been recognized by Chabad. hence, he avoided saying "Medinas Yisroel", a phrase even the Rebbe never pronounced.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, don't think that it calmed down the Chabad movement, quite the contrary, and there are even some who are calling R. Rosenberg to resign from his position in the movement.
The whole story is not going to be calmed down untill he apologize for what he did and for having attended such event where, contrary to what is said, he pretended to speak in Chabad's name, while the Lubavitch position on Zionism is quite clear and has been such since the begining of the Zionist movement.
R. Rosenberg was motivated and convinced to attend the event by Zaki's chairman, as you can read it here: http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61356
ReplyDeleteBecause of that a fiery and animated debate took place yesterday between Zaki's chairman and Rabbi Wolpo (representing Chabad). You can hear it here: http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61362
R. Wolpo made it clear that taking part to such event is a disgrace and that even Zaki's chairman (who took place in the lighting of the torch some years ago) should be ashamed to justify such thing.
After R. Rosenberg made his speech, here is the reaction of one of Chabad Rabbis: http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61359
Finally, one of the prominent Yerushalmite Chabad Rabbis, HaRav Tuvia Blau (the nephew of Rav Amram Blau, the legendary leader of Neturei Karta), whose strong opposition to zionism is known to everybody, reacted also: http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61357. Rabbi Tuvia Blau made clear the opposition of the Rebbe and ask R. Rosenberg why did he bring his grandson in such mascarade?
ReplyDeleteAs you can see, the whole matter is not going to be calmed down like that.
But what I find "funny" is the reaction I received since the beginning of the story by some people with whom I'm involved: We didn't know you, Chabad, were such anti-zionists!
I think all this is a good thing. Because it makes clear what we are really about and what we are not. People, thanks to that story, should understand that being involved with secular and Zionist Jews DOES NOT MEAN that we agree with Zionism. There are plenty of Chabad Rabbis who always said the truth about the position of Chabad on that issue, whatever the consequences. But I wonder what was the reaction of those Chabad Rabbis who never told the truth to the people they were trying to bring close to the Torah when they asked them: "Rabbi, what do you believe about the State of israel and the opposition R. Rosenberg is facing among his own group? Do you agree with that and what did the Rebbe say?" I really wonder if they tried to be apologetics or did they tell them the truth? The Rebbe was clear: it's not necessary to speak about our opposition to Zionism, but when we are asked, we HAVE to tell the truth, whatever the consequences! But I know that some Rabbis won't dare to say the truth because most of the people who attend their Beis Chabad are pro-zionist. So, they'd rather continue to give them a false repreentation of Chabad, and that's the reason why so many people wrongly think that we are Zionists and supporters of the State, while the truth is, we have no theological disagreement with Satmar, the difference being on a practical level: how to react now that the State does exist! Satmar chose the seclusion, Chabad chose to be involved with them and bring them back to Torah.
B"H
ReplyDeleteRabbi Rosenberg lives in Afula right ? Is he running their local Chabad House across the Central Bus Station ? If so, it is Meshichist.
I had a comment on my German blog doubting that Chabad is anti - Zionist. The commentator believes that it is just a rumour. :-)
Many people don't know or even imagine about Chabad's anti - Zionism, as Chabadnikim are seen as open minded, nice and modern. Just look at the Shluchim.
I can't remember wher but I read, it may have been in the book called "THE REBBE" (details about Chassidut Chabad) that Chabad prefers to keep quiet about two issues:
1. Their anti - Zionism
and
2. Their position on the Holocaust.
By the way, what about the "YECHI" song the Rebbe introduced years before he passed away ? Why did he do that and why especially such a Meshiach song ?
"Rabbi Rosenberg lives in Afula right ? Is he running their local Chabad House across the Central Bus Station ? If so, it is Meshichist." R. Rosenberg lives in Afula and is indeed a Meshichist. Yesterday, before making his speech, he said in a loud voice: "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V'Rabbeinu Melech HaMoshiach L'Olom Vo'ed!" which caused Meshichist Chabadnikim to express their shock that he dare pronounce such "holy words" in such disgusting event (read here: http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61359 where it is said that even fanatical Meshichisten were disgusted). A video was circulating on another Chabad website from last week event when Moishe lit the torch. In the video, we can clearly see and hear Moishe proclaiming "Yechi..." before lighting the torch. The video has been removed sincej, but I have it in my computer, I can send it to you if you want. I want to add that Rabbi Gaby Holzberg OBM was not a Meshichist nor his parents who live in New York, but Rabbi Rosenberg is a Meshichist. So Moishe didn't learn about Yechi through his parents but through R. Rosenberg, his grandparent who is in charge of him.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I just realize that I deleted the video because I could bear to see that.
ReplyDeleteAs for your question about Yechi, the Rebbe NEVER introduced the song. There is a custom in Chabad that at every event where the Rebbe would address children, 12 children (6 girls and 6 boys) would recite 12 verses chosen by the Rebbe, and after the last verse, the child who recited it, had to shout "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V'Rabbeinu" a short prayer to ask G-d that the Rebbe should be ealthy and have a long life, and it was done also in other chasidic courts. But in 5751 (1991), the belief that the Rebbe was Moshiach began to spread among chassidim, and some decided to add the words "Melech HaMoshiach L'Olom Vo'ed" to the original "Yechi." The song was sung in private because people were not sure that it would be accepted by the Rebbe.
In the farbrengen of the first Shabbos after the famous Sicha of 28 Nissan 5751, Rabbi Ganzberg stood up and made an announcement in the Rebbe's presence, saying that he must reveal himself as King Moshiach. The Rebbe responded, with a contorted face:
ReplyDelete"Don't tell me what to do...!" (and many know the rest of the Rebbe's remarks. They were so sharp that I don't want to rewrit(e them here).
Again, the next Shabbos, in the middle of the farbrengen, Rabbi Dovid Nachshon burst out singing "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabbeinu Melech Hamoshiach L'olam Voed" for the first time in the Rebbe's presence, and many of the assembled crowd sang along with him. The Rebbe didn't make any remark. But the next day, the Rebbe made it known through his secretary, Rabbi Groner, that:
"What they did was their responsibility, and because of them the Rebbe was coming down to prayers an hour late..."
So the Rebbe was really angry when he heard what they were singing about him being the Moshiach, when the added the words "Melech HaMoshiach L'Olom Vo'ed" to the original "Yechi."
In the month of Iyar, 5751, the editor of the weekly Kfar Chabad Magazine, Rabbi Aharon Dov Halprin, sent the Rebbe an article by Rabbi Yoel Kahan that he was considering printing. The article explained that one who truly believes his Rebbe is the leader of the generation, and who also believes in Moshiach, naturally has to believe that his Rebbe will be Moshiach. The Rebbe responded (on 17 Iyar) with a complete reputation:
"If, rachmana litzlan, you print anything even slightly similar to this - you should right away totally close down the magazine. The enclosed article is obviously baseless."
In that month (Iyar, 5751) the editor of Yisroel Shelonu, Mr. Shmuel Shmuali, wanted to print in his newspaper about Moshiach in general, and more specifically, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was Moshiach. The Rebbe replied:
ReplyDelete"Regarding publishing about Moshiach, etc.:
"As evident from all the information coming in, the latest articles and columns on this subject have raised new antagonists, to the detriment of Chassidic learning and practice.
"In debates and disputations, especially in print, the questions are always easily established, but the answers are not always so forthcoming...
"Seemingly, considering the present state of affairs, it would be more sensible to suspend printing on this topic..."
So the Rebbe's answer concerning those who wanted to proclaim him "Melech HaMoshiach" was quite clear: it was out of question. In the same month of Iyar, the 15th, after Mincha, once again Rabbi Nachshon led some other chassidim in singing the new version of "Yechi" (the one with the mention of "Melech HaMoshiach L'Olom Vo'ed"). Once again, the Rebbe didn't react immediately, but the day after that he clearly explain that he was displeased by what took place the day before and that it should never again be sang in his presence. But, one year later, On Shabbos Parshas Noach, Mar-Cheshvan 4, 5752, Chassidim started the farbrengen by singing the "Yechi... Melech HaMoshiach..." When they finished singing the Rebbe said:
"This is extremely absurd. Here a song is sung with such words, while I sit here at the table... The truth is that I really should get up and leave!...
"As for why I am not leaving - first of all, whether I do or I don't, it anyway would not help; and secondly, it would upset the goal of 'sheves achim gam yachad' ('brethren sit even together') - for if I leave others too will leave, and automatically this opportunity for 'brethren sit even together' would be lost. Everyone knows how important this is - as the Rashbi elaborates in the Zohar..." This was the last time the "Yechi...Melech HaMoshiach" was sang in the Rebbe's presence, untill his strock. To many who wrote letters to the Rebbe addressing him as "The Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach," the Rebbe replied:
"When he will arrive I will give this to him."
Unfortunately, in the late 5752, the Rebbe was victim of a stock which paralysed his right side and made him unable to speak. This was apparently the signal and the event Meshichists were waiting for. They began to sing "Yechi...Melech HaMoshiach" every single day in the Rebbe's presence after prayers when the Rebbe was to appear on the balcony, from 5753 untill his death in 5754. For almost a year and a half, from Simchas Torah 5753 until his second stroke on 27 Adar 5754, practically every day that the Rebbe appeared on the balcony of 770, Chassidim sang the "Yechi...Melech HaMoshiach" song proclaiming the Rebbe as Moshiach - and not only did the Rebbe not protest, but he even encouraged the singing with vigorous nods of his head and left hand. From this the Mishichistim saw a "green light" to continue with their activities to the fullest extent. But from dozen of answer and clear directives the Rebbe gave before his strock, we can deduce that the Rebbe was not approving, and like he said it before his strock, the only reason why he didn't ask them to stop singing that song or why he didn't leave when they were singing, is because first of all it wouldn't have prevented the chassidim to sing it anyway, and second, to leave is contrary to the spirit of brotherhood which should prevail among chasidim, because if the Rebbe would have left, they woudl have been a war among Lubavitchers, and the Rebbe didn't want that. That's the reason why the Rebbe after his strock didn't ask his chassidim to stop singing the song. BUT as you see, it was NEVER the Rebbe who introduced the song to begin with, but Rabbi Nachshon was the one who introduced the song and sing it publicly for the first time, and I told you what was the Rebbe's reaction.
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteIs there no link to the video left ?
Israel's haredi websites also made a big fuss about Rabbi Rosenberg and Moishi participating in the event. Not in a hostile way but just curious what would happen.
Do you know why Moishe wasn't sent to New York, to Rabbi Gavriel's parents, and grow up there ? Just a question out of curiosity.
I forgot where I read that the Rebbe himself introduced the song. If it was David Berger or Avrum Ehrlich in "The Meshiach from Brooklyn".
About Avrum Ehrlich I always have certain doubts:
http://shearim.blogspot.com/2010/08/avrum-ehrlichs-research-in-chabad.html
"Do you know why Moishe wasn't sent to New York, to Rabbi Gavriel's parents, and grow up there ? Just a question out of curiosity" I dont know, but I heard that they decided that it would be better for him to grow in Israel, far from the big noise of NYC. The Holtzbergs didn't want to live in Israel, so because the Rosenbergs were israeli citizen, they took him. But there is another answer to that question: we know that after the bombing in Mumbai which cost Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife's lives, a conflict arose between the Rosenberg and the Holtzberg. Rabbi Rosenberg wanted to manage the rebuilding of the new Beis Chabad in Mumbai which would replace the one that was destroyed. Merkoz L'Inyonei Chinuch, the Chabad organization responsable for all the Shluchim and Kiruv activities (led by Rabbis Yehudah Krinsky and Moshe Kotlarsky) refused and they took over the building. Why? It was never said, but the answer his too obvious: all the Batei Chabad in India are led by Meshichists, and Merkoz L'Inyonei Chinuch would never accept that the Beis Chabad which was led by Rabbi Holzberg OBM would be led by Meshichists. Remember that Rabbi Rosenberg is Meshichist, while Rabbi Krinsky is a fierce anti-Meshichist (remember the story I told you between Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Yoel Kahan). It is of course my opinion, and I'm quite sure that it has something to do with why he took Moishe and refuse to let him live in NYC. But I may be wrong, because it was never said.
ReplyDelete"I forgot where I read that the Rebbe himself introduced the song. If it was David Berger or Avrum Ehrlich" Berger is a fierce anti-Chabad. When people write books or give lectures about Chabad out of anger and hatred for Chabad, they have no credibility. The Rebbe NEVER introduced the song. Like I told you, it was the custom to shout "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V'Rabbeinu", but from 5751, Rabbi Nachshon decided to add "Melech HaMoshuach L'Olom Vo'ed" and since then, some chassidim decided to adopt the new "Yechi" and I already show you the Rebbe's reaction when he heard that. It was only because of his strocj that the song took the proportion we now today. The repeat 1000 times the same lie does not make it a truth. The truth is that the Rebbe was opposed to that, and he said it quite clearly more than once.
B"H
ReplyDeleteThanks for the insights.
I have to tell you from my Zfat experience that being with the Meshichistim is not easy. After a while they just drive you nuts. Only their opinion is thr truth and they don't speak about anything else.
Here are the most famous answer given by the Rebbe regarding proclaiming him as Moshiach:
ReplyDeleteIn the month of Iyar, 5744, Rabbi Wolpo wanted to print his book "Yechi Hamelech," in which he attempt to demonstrate, with numerous hints, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach. After he sent the Rebbe the book's proofs, he immediately received the Rebbe's answer, written in the Rebbe's handwriting, and read over the telephone by Rabbi Hodakov. The Rebbe's words were:
"Telephone him in my name the following:
"It is apparent that he is feigning as though he doesn't understand what I already answered before, that it is possible to do much damage to Chabad, rachmana litzlan, and to the spreading of the wellsprings, through writing on this theme - and my intention was mainly to him; enough said.
"Now I warn him that he must stop speaking, writing, and how much more so, publicizing, especially in print, anything pertaining to Moshiach - whether in his own name, under an assumed name, through an intermediary or the like - with whatever kuntz he may concoct, and in whatever format or manner that may be. And if, chas v'sholom, he goes ahead and does anything in this regard, he should know clearly that this is a specific and general war against me.
"Obviously the above includes any interpretations of matters regarding Moshiach in the Rambam or other Seforim, Chassidic discourses and anything of the like."
In the month of Tamuz, 5744, Rabbi Wolpo wrote to the Rebbe asking forgiveness for the aggravation he had caused the Rebbe through his efforts to publish his above mentioned book, but he again attempted to "prove" to the Rebbe that people really "needed" his book. The Rebbe responded:
ReplyDelete"1) Obviously, in everything I wrote and said regarding the above there was absolutely nothing at all the opposite of a blessing, chas v'sholom v'chas v'sholom, and even now there is none, chas v'sholom v'chas v'sholom. However:
"2) When something is 'publicized,' and especially when it is printed, what is pertinent is how it will be interpreted by the reader - and not the author.
"3) It has come to pass that because of his activities (speaking, printing, and behaving) - he fuels divisiveness, etc., and hundreds of Jews (and more) have stopped learning Chassidus, and now oppose the Baal Shem Tov and his teachings in actuality, etc., etc.
"4) Among these are some who until he began doing such things were involved in spreading the wellsprings .
"5) Some seek the slightest hint or pretext which can be used to enlarge the bonfire.
"6) In the pages which he enclosed there would be no need for such people to search for hints and pretexts , for they are all permeated with this material, and automatically his effort would only lead to a continuation of the same result, another battle against disseminating Chassidus, and even more people will be estranged from learning Chassidus - may this never happen...!
"All the above is obvious, and therefore it is extremely astonishing that he tries to explain to me the opposite!"
After receiving the Rebbe's holy answer, again Rabbi Wolpo had the chutzpa to "explain" to the Rebbe the value of his book, and he again continued "sparring" with the Rebbe - insisting that no one should be "ashamed" of the halacha. Again he received the Rebbe's holy reply:
ReplyDelete"What I wrote was not just a precaution, lest perhaps... Rather, it was founded on what is public knowledge - that thousands, and more, have stopped learning Chassidus and now clash with the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, etc., because of talk and publications from you alone.
"As for the 'simpleton's question': How can it be proper not to spread the halacha?
"Let me ask you: When speaking to a rich man in the United States for a donation... do you tell him that one who strikes a match on the holy Shabbos is censurable by stoning, and if the Sanhedrin was in power, as you long for it to be, you would be among those who would stone him, rachmana litzlan - as provided for by a clear halacha in the holy Torah? And would you tell this to him even when you were visiting him on the afternoon of Shabbos Eve?
"Certainly, if you answer my question, I will, bli neder, answer you."
B"H
ReplyDeleteBut isn't it also true the Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson proclaimed his dead father - in - law, the sixth Rebbe, as Meshiach. A remark he later took back.
On Motzoei Shabbos Bereishis, 5745, during the Rebbe's farbrengen, Chassidim sang a tune with the words "Soldiers of the Rebbe, soldiers of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, he will lead us with Tanks to our Land..." The Rebbe suddenly interrupted the singing of the song, and spoke sternly and sharply in a deeply pained and loud voice. Some of the Rebbe's less-shern words were as follows:
ReplyDelete"There are some 'Spitz Chabad' who think that specifically they know what has to be done and how it is necessary to behave, and when everyone around them tries to tell them that what they are doing is detrimental, it has no effect on them whatsoever, for they think, 'Who are they to tell us! None of them are on our level, for we are 'Spitz Chabad!'
"The intention in this: As a result of what they are saying, the things they are printing, and the songs they are singing, etc. - they are responsible for distancing of scores of Jews from the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, learning Chassidus, and conduct in the ways of Chassidus. Not only this, but even Jews who had already started learning Chassidus - now they have stopped learning Chassidus because of the activities of these people! Not only do these activities not bring closer the distant, but on the contrary, they even distance those who had already started getting close! Even when they try to wrap themselves in a cloak of holiness, "a silken kaftan and gartel" - it does not change at all the fact that thereby they alienate Jews from the teachings of Chassidus, together with everything else that ensues. All of this is squarely their responsibility...!
"Why don't they follow in the way our Rebbeim paved for us! No one has any need for their 'innovation,' especially as the only thing it serves is to foment new divisiveness against the Baal Shem Tov and the Alter Rebbe, rachmana litzlan...!
"Therefore, let it be known: Anyone who continues with these activities - is an opponent who fights against Chassidus Chabad, against Nosi Doreinu, the Baal Shem Tov, until Malka Moshicha... who desires and longs to come and redeem us, only he must wait until there is an increase in spreading the wellsprings to the outside. These people, meanwhile, are decreasing the number of Jews learning Chassidus, rachmana litzlan!
In the month of Adar, Rabbi Yitzchak Hendel of Montreal, sent the Rebbe a Psak Din, cosigned by other Chassidim there, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe "is presumed to be Moshiach." The Rebbe turned to his secretary, Rabbi Leibel Groner, and asked who had sent this. Rabbi Groner answered it was from Anash of Montreal, with the authorization of Rabbi Hendel. Thereon the Rebbe asked:
ReplyDelete"Based on what did he judge me this way? Are all of his ruling of the same quality as this...?! "
"But isn't it also true the Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson proclaimed his dead father - in - law, the sixth Rebbe, as Meshiach. A remark he later took back"
ReplyDeleteIn a speech of Shabbos Parshas Naso, 5720, the Rebbe related:
"When the Previous Rebbe proclaimed 'Immediately to repentance, immediately to redemption,' Chassidim indeed publicized this, and they even added - among themselves - that the intended redeemer was none other than the Previous Rebbe himself..."
The Rebbe didn't say that the Previous Rebeb was Moshiach but that chasidim of the Previous Rebbe said he was. It's not the same. There is a difference between saying something about yourself and hearing other people saying something about you.
Throughout all his nesius, the Rebbe did indeed refer to the Previous Rebbe as being "The leader and Moshiach of our Generation." Once again, there is a difference between "the Moshiach of the Generation" and "the Melech HaMoshiach." Soo, yes, the Rebbe called his predecessor "Moshiach" but "of the generation", but not as being the Moshiach we are waiting for. And the Rebbe did explain why some chasidim believed the Previous Rebbe was Moshiach, and why some chassidim believed the Rebbe was Moshiach: In the Sicha of the 5th night of Sukkos, 5747, the Rebbe said:
"Every Chossid believes with complete faith that the Rebbe of his generation is - the Moshiach."
In the Speech of Shabbos Parshas Tazriah-Metzorah, 5751, the Rebbe brought the well known passage from Mesechtas Sanhedrin, "The disciples of Rebbe Shila say his (Moshiach's) name is Shila," and then he continued:
"And we (Chassidim) answer in like manner regarding our Rebbeim, especially my father-in-law, the Rebbe Nosi Doreinu..."
These sources seem to indicate that we are allowed to publicize the name of the person we hold to be Moshiach. But this is not what the Rebbe said. What he said is that it is quite normal that chassidim end to believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach, not the Rebbe said that he was Moshiach, like in the gemara where we read that disciples from differnt schools all believed that their teachers were Moshiach, not that their teachers said they were.
During the yechidus of Rabbi Tuvya Floss, a Chabad activist from Israel, the Rebbe, among other things, spoke strongly and sharply of Chassidim in Israel (even mentioning names) who go around in the streets announcing the Lubavitcher Rebbe is King Moshiach. The expression the Rebbe used to describe how he felt about this was:
ReplyDelete"When they do things like this they tear me to pieces!"
We cannot be clearer than that. Those Meshichists proclaiming that the Rebbe is Moshiach are tearing him in pieces, Rachmana Litzlan!
Just a few days before 27 Adar I, 5752 (the day the Rebbe had his strock), the Rebbe issued a handwritten answer to an individual (the facsimile was later released by the Rebbe's secretary, Rabbi Binyamin Klein):
ReplyDelete"There is no obligation at all to search for who is Moshiach - but there is a positive commandment of the Torah to love each and every Jew and avoid divisiveness to the extreme, and obviously one should not intentionally incite the opposite!"
After 27 Adar I, 5752, the Rebbe was no longer able to answer by speaking or writing, but he was still able to answer by shaking his head "Yes" or "No." The following are some of his answers in this period:
In Iyar, 5752, a Shliach in California, Rabbi Dovid Aliezri, sent the Rebbe a letter with three questions: 1) Should activities pertaining to Moshiach be separate, but on a par with, the Chabad House's other activities? Or are they meant to be the main stress of all the activities? 2) Is necessary to indicate who is Moshiach? 3) Should it be publicized that our period is the period of Moshiach's coming? The letter was read by the Rebbe's secretary, Rabbi Groner, and the Rebbe responded by shaking his head:
To the first part of the first question (Should activities pertaining to Moshiach be separate, but on a par with, the Chabad House's other activities?) the Rebbe shook his head to indicate "No."
To the second part of the first question (Or are they meant to be the main stress of all the activities?) he shook his head twice to indicate "Yes! "
To the second question (Is necessary to indicate who is Moshiach?) the Rebbe shook his head vigorously to indicate "No!"
To the third question (Should it be publicized that our period is the period of Moshiach's coming?) he shook his head "Yes."
Concerning the Chabad's position on the Holocaust, it's the same that our position on Zionism: it's not that it is difficult to explain, but people who are not deep in their faith in G-d and Torah studies and practice, cannot understand such things. So, we avoid speaking about that, but when we are asked, we must tell the truth in a way that will be acceptable and understood.
ReplyDeleteMoshe, just thought you might find this interesting: I attended a Meshichist yeshiva in upstate New York for five days (I would have left after one day, but I had to wait for a ride), and there was a special "moshiach shiur." On the first time they handed out pages of proofs that the Rebbe always gave his "OK" to people referring to him as Moshiach, to a certain book that was printed, maybe the one you mentioned above, at the grave of the Ba'al Shem Tov, where it was said, and to all of these the Rebbe approved. Just wondering if you could lend some insight. I didn't want to get involved, and I came home quickly.
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteFinally also the Israeli secular press is referring to the dispute in Chabad but the Hebrew edition of the "Jerusalem Post" refrains from explaining the reason: Chabad's anti - Zionism.
The paper only says that Rabbi Rosenberg didn't act in accordance with further Chabad Rabbis.
To Chazzan805:
ReplyDeleteMeshichists are known to manipulate the Rebbe's teachings and writtings. It is a fact that there is a difference between the Rebbe's wrods and how they are translated and interpreted by them. The most famous Meshichist books published to "prove" that the Rebbe agreed to be indentified as being Moshiach are "V'Hu Yigoleinu" and "Yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach". Concerning the first book, it is full of mistakes and mistranslations that are obvisous if you read the sources quoted in their original yiddish. You will see that the English and Hebrew translations are not what the Rebbe said in the original Yiddish. As far as the second book, EVERYBODY knows that the Rebbe was opposed to that book and that every time Rabbi Wolpo asked permission from the Rebbe to print it, the Rebbe was clear in his refusal, as I reported above. It's only after the Rebbe's strock, when the Rebbe was no longer able to speak and to express any disapproval, that Rabbi Wolpo printed the book. It says it all on the Meshichist agenda. Do not take at face value what you are taught by them. Don't trust the translations and the explanations they will give you. Go and read the words of the Rebbe in their original language (in Yiddish), compare and you will see who is right: the Rebbe or the Meshichistim? Second, they will only tell what suits them. They will relate to you one or two cases when the Rebbe seemed to approve, but they will not tell you the hondred of cases when the Rebbe was even ready to leave because of them proclaiming him the Moshiach. There is only one thing to consider: what did the Rebbe say, and not how his wrods are intepreted. Third, most of nowadays fanatical Meshichists are people who didn't meet the Rebbe and know about him only through what they were told. So they don't really know about the opposition of the Rebbe concerning that issue of proclaiming him "Moshiach." In numerous public talks, the Rebbe shed tears and used very strong and painful words to describe those people, even saying that in saying and proclaiming that he was Moshiach, they were TEARING HIM IN PIECES! Meshichistim will show tou ONE video where we see the chassidim singing Yechi before his strock. The video is from Iyar 15th, 5751, and is called "The First Yechi." Yes, Yechi was sang that day in the Rebbe's presence, and the Rebbe didn't make a fuss. BUT, they won't tell you what happen the day after and what were the rebbe's words about that event. Ask a Meshichist: if the Rebbe did agree about the song, how is it that Iyar 15, 5751 was the ONLY video where we can see the Yechi being sang in his presence before his sttrock that took place in Adar 5752? Because of the Rebbe's wrods which were very harsh. But they won't tell you that. So be careful and do'nt put all Chabadnikim in the same bag. Those people have an agenda and they are ready to manipulate the Rebbe's teachings.
To Chazzan805
ReplyDeleteI found the story you were refering in your post. Here it is as related by Meshichists:
After Shavuos 5751, rabbanei Chabad who had gathered at 770 from all over the world signed a detailed psak din which quoted the halacha in the Rambam regarding the signs indicating who is Moshiach, and established that “it is clear according to the Torah of truth that the halachic status of ‘b’chezkas she’hu Moshiach’ applies to the Rebbe shlita, for all the conditions enumerated in the Rambam apply to the Rebbe shlita.”
Then on the 11th of Sivan 5751, a ksav minui (letter of appointment, given to a legal emissary) on behalf of the beis din of Crown Heights, the Vaad Rabbanei Chabad of Eretz Yisroel, and the general Vaad HaRabbanim, was given to Rabbi Dovid Nachshon and to R Avrohom Taub, appointing them to read the psak din that the Rebbe is b’chezkas Moshiach at the gravesites of the Chabad Rebbeim in Russia. This trip was kept secret and merited special and rare attention from the Rebbe. The following are answers to these two shluchim:
Beis Iyar, near the mikva: “Yashar ko’ach yashar ko’ach.”
This was followed by: “All this was taken to the tziyun.”
On the 13th of Sivan, the Rebbe blessed the shluchim with a good trip in three languages. While in Russia, they asked whether they should tarry or travel immediately to Medzibuzh. The Rebbe said they should travel to Medzibuzh immediately.
On 5 Av 5751, a minyan convened and went to the gravesite of the Arizal where they read the psak din about the hisgalus (revelation) of the Rebbe as Melech HaMoshiach. When they informed the Rebbe of this, he said: “May all this have its effect, etc., and the time is auspicious, etc. I will mention it at the tziyun.”
By reading the story as they relate it, it gives the impression that the Rebbe approved what they did. But let's have a close look:
ReplyDelete1) Before relating the story, they had the honesty to write: "Responses of the Rebbe MH”M in free translation" (see here:http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/Moshiach280/moshiach280.htm). So it's NOT necessary a literal and trustful translation of what the rebbe trully said.
2) They say that the travel at the gravesites was kept secret. If the Rebbe agreed, why the need to keep it secret? Who knows that the story really happened if nobody, except those named in the story, knew about it?
3) Don't forget that rabbi Nachshon is a strong Meshichist, and so, they have their agenda. They would tell that story, but they will never dare tell you the harsh words the Rebbe used about the same Rabbi Nachshon during a farbrenghen, IN PUBLIC, in front of thousand of chassidim! Those who were present know the harsh words the Rebbe used to describe Rabbi Nachshon and his actions. So, we can have many of doubts about the supposed acceptance of the Rebbe.
4) Let's say that the stort happened. Knowing who Rabbi Nachshon is and how the Rebbe discribed him, it's possible that they didn't tell the whole truth to the Rebbe. It's possible that the psakei dinim they presented to the Rebbe were about accepting that the coming of Moshiach was imminent and that it was necessary to publicize that. About that, the Rebbe would have no problem, and in fact, it's true that he encouraged many times his chassidim to publicize that Moshiach was coming very soon. The Rebbe's acceptance was about publicizing the imminence of Moshiach's coming, NOT to publicize who Moshiach was. So, it's possible that they used certain words in front of the rebbe, but they used other words in his back. The Rebbe gave them encouragement to publicize that Moshiach was coming soon, but they used that approval to publicize that he was Moshiach. The simple fact that the Rebbe opposed publicaly those who were trying to crown him as Moshiach is a proof that Meshichists are not telling the whole truth. It's only when the Rebbe had his strock that they began to be vocal, because ebing unable to speak, the Rebbe could no longer protest.
5) On the same website, just under that story, they tell about how the Rebbe approved the printing of the book "Yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach." But the story is false. As I related above, in the preivious posts, the Rebbe was strongly opposed to the publication of that book from Rabbi Wolpo. The approbation of the Rebbe was only given for the printing of "Yechi HaMelech", a book from Rabbi Wolpo, explaining the Halachos of Moshiach and how to identify him, without any reference or hint pointing to the Rebbe. It was nonly on that condition that the Rebbe agreed the publication. but when the Rebbe had his strock, he dicided to reprint his "Yechi HaMelech" under a new title "Yechi HaMelech HaMoshaich" in which he refered to the Rebbe as being the Moshiach. It is cowardness, because the Rebbe refused countless of times the publication of such book, even forbiding him to write again about the topic of Moshiach. But now that the Rebbe couldn't no longer speak and protest, he printed it, and is telling to every one that the Rebbe approved, while the letters of disapprobation sent by the Rebbe are available and can be read by every one. Once again, who tell the truth: the Rebbe or the Meshichists? Judge by yourself!
"the Hebrew edition of the "Jerusalem Post" refrains from explaining the reason: Chabad's anti - Zionism. " because they don't know about that. Like I told tou, they see only the chitzonius: Chabad are involved with Israel, Chabad accept each and every Jew, Chabad receive money from the government, Chabad are in the army, many Chabadnikim work for the state (look at how many Chief Rabbis in Israel are Chabadnikim), Chabad is cool, etc., so it isn't possible that Chabad is anti-zionist. So they cannot refer to something they don't know, because they don't care about the pnimiyus (internal) of Chabad, they like to see the shell. I'd like to add that we never hid such information. We are not hypocrites. In fact, 3 books in hebrew written by Rabbi Wolpo have been published in the last decade (after the disengagment from Gaza) explaining the anti-zionism of Chabad and the rebbe's position on the matter. One of those books is "Beyn Ohr L'Choshech." (Between Light and Darkness). When it was published, all Chabad Rabbis admitted that the content of the book was true, but most of them will never dare putting the book in their Beis Chabad's bookshell because most of them are involved with Zionist and secular Jews who are not yet ready to absorb the message. It was, in fact, reported by the Jerusalem Post and Ynet (you can read here: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2005/11/chabad_rears_it.html. I gave that link because the articles are no longer availbale on the JP and Ynet's website, not that I agree with FailedMessiah's website which is a chillul hashem and a disgrace to what Judaism stands for, and is full of lies and L'H). The other book is "Shalom, Shalom, V'Eyn Shalom!" (Peace, Peace, but No Peace!" when it is explained why the State of israel is a failure, what did the rebbe said about it, and why the Rebbe, despite his anti-zionism, supported the State of Israel: only for the safety of the Jews living in the Holy Land. The book can be ordered here: http://www.sos-israel.com/index.asp?catID=48949&siteLang=3. So, it's not Chabad who hide its position, it's people who don't want to know the truth and even when Chabad tell the truth, like today, they don't hear and focus on the chitzonius, and convinced themselves, like the Jerusalem Post, that such position does not represent Chabad because "Chabadnikim are Zionists" (Chass v'Shalom, to say such thing!), and only a minority are not. All is available, books have been printed and all the sichos of the rebbe can be read. The Rebbe never hid anything, every Sicha was given in public and broadcasted live on TV and Internet, and are even available in English and Hebrew. It's people who don't want to see the truth either because they really don't want to or because they think that the openmindness of their local Shliach means he agree with them, while it's not the case. A Shliach is not involved in politics and debate. He does not care about your political or theological opinions. He does not care if you are a Zionist or an anti-zionist, he does not care if you voted for the Likkud or Meretz. What cares him, is to bring you closer to the Torah. That's all! But people see that as a proof of his zionism because he never argue with you on the matter.
ReplyDeleteThe prepared text included the following phrase (this is how it appeared in the 'subtext' on the TV broadcast): "משיח צדקנו בוא יבוא ושעת גאולתנו קרובה"
ReplyDeleteRabbi Shimon Rosenberg inserted the words: "והרבי" before the phrase. Video clip on Ladaat.com http://ht.ly/4RVqI
Joel Katz
Religion and State in Israel
@religion_state
B"H
ReplyDeleteWhat fits the Rebbe, according to the Rambam, of being the Meshiach ?
I just know that, also according to the Rambam, the Rebbe doesn't fit anymore the criteria of being Meshiach, as he died. The Rambam, in the Mishna Torah says that no dead person can be the Meshiach.
When I asked any Chabadnik why some of them think that the Rebbe could be or could have been the potential Meshiach, hardly anyone is giving an explanation. What comes as a reply is only "Well, he has the potential of being the Meshiach !"
None of the Chabadnikim I asked ever had a professional response for me.
"What fits the Rebbe, according to the Rambam, of being the Meshiach ?"
ReplyDeleteRambam gave the criteria to identify the Moshiach in Mishneh Torah, Hilkhos Melachim, chapter 11:
1) If a king will arise from the House of David
The Rebbe was from Beis Dovid as it is well documented.
2) who delves deeply into the study of the Torah
The Rebbe was universally known to be a Gaon on Torah matters. He knew the entire Talmud by heart as is well known, and in fact, during all the 43 years he was the Rebbe, he never used notes when giving a speech. All the sichos (public discourses) made by the Rebbe has been put in printing thanks to Rabbi Yoel Kahan who had such a memory that he was able to memorize the entire 6 six hours speech and when finished, Rabbi Yoel Kahan put them by writing, and the day after, the sich was available in printing and distributed to all anash.
3) and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law
There are even many ancient customs which were not practiced since a long time that the Rebbe revived.
4) if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]
It is process the Rebbe initiated and which is continued by the Shluchim all over the world.
5) and if he will fight the wars of G-d
All the wars of israel had been predicted by the Rebbe. Moreover, Chazal explain that the "wars of G-d" are spiritual wars (that mean fighting the assimilation and the spiritual dangers the jewosh people have to face).
If he accomplish those above 5 points, he can be considered being the presumed Moshiach (Chezkas Moshiach).
BUT, it's only if, in addition to the 5 aforementionned points, he rebuild the Temple on its site, and gather the dispersed remnants of the Jewish people, that he is definitely the Moshiach (Moshiach Vadai).
So, there are two phases: Chezkas Moshiach (the PRESUMED Moshiach) and then Moshiach Vadai (the ACTUAL Moshiach). IF people believe that the Rebbe did indeed accomplish the first phase, he can only be a PRESUMED Moshiach.
"I just know that, also according to the Rambam, the Rebbe doesn't fit anymore the criteria of being Meshiach, as he died. The Rambam, in the Mishna Torah says that no dead person can be the Meshiach." Itr is not really exact, because the Rambam can be read "if he is killed" and not "if he dies", which imply that if the Chezkas Moshiach is killed, we can know for sure that he cannot be the Moshiach Vadai. But if dies, he still can be the Moshiach Vadai, as it is said in Sanhedrin that a PRESUMED Moshiach who died can still be Moshiach Vadai if G-d decides to resurrect him to bring the Geulah.
"None of the Chabadnikim I asked ever had a professional response for me" because it can take more than 10 minutes of discussion to answer such question.
ReplyDeleteB"H
ReplyDeleteI have never heard before that the Rebbe was from the House of David. Who can, for sure, make such a claim today ?
When you look at the history in former Babylonia and all the Galut matters. Most descendants of King David were killed and I haven't even explained the Rosh Galuta in this blog.
Are you familiar with the history of Bustenai ?
What I am trying to say is that it is very hard to prove whether a Jew today comes from the House of David.
Furthermore, there are other great Torah scholars but this doesn't mean that anyone has to become Meshiach. The Rebbe was surely a great man but he passed away.
There are claims in certain books about Chabad (I think it was Avrum Ehrlich "The Meshiach from Brooklyn) or David Berger (I know that the Lubavitcher don't like hearing that name) that the Rebbe, after his stroke, started to believe that he may be the Meshiach, as Chabad has the ideology that there will be only seven Rebbes. Speaking psychology, so the claim, the Rebbe may have believed it himself, as it helped him getting over the stroke.
Here is an interesting article, in hebrew, which tries to explain the meaning of "To the glory of the State of Eretz Yisroel" used by Rabbi Rosenberg instead of "To the Glory of The State of Israel": http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_he&id=61427
ReplyDelete